Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

First, let me just state that not everyone who uses the term "covenant creation" agrees point by point on the interpretation of the Genesis creation account. There are also philosophical as well as soteriological differences among those who adhere to some form of a "covenant" framework for "creation".

Secondly, when I write on this topic I am speaking for myself and from my own viewpoint and have no interest in representing anyone else. However, the list which follows of what "covenant creation" is NOT, would be agreed upon by anyone with whom I am acquainted who views Genesis creation within a similar framework. In other words, in the case of each point below, a statement was made which describes the view of *no one* I know, and yet claims to describe someone's view. So, the thing is, people read those false statements and form opinions about *people* because of them. And frankly, it gets discouraging.

I will add to this list whenever I find that more false statements have been made claiming to represent "covenant creation".

"Covenant Creation" is NOT:

1. a geographically "local" or "tribal" view of Genesis creation
2. a "creation/evolution mix"
3. a denial that miracles exist (ie, we do not deny that Jesus walked on water, or that he rose from the dead, and no, we do not deny that Balaam's donkey talked)
4. the view that the animals on Noah's ark were really people which God commanded Noah to sacrifice and literally eat (I know, it surprised me also that this needed to be clarified.)
5. dictated by extra-biblical sources, or modern scientific discovery
6. a form of empiricism
7. the view that the Bible has nothing to say to Chinese people, so why should we preach the gospel to them (no, I didn't just make that up, someone attributed that to "covenant creation")
8. the view that the god of the bible is merely a "tribal god" and not the God of the universe (nope, I didn't make that one up either)
9. the view that "Genesis is a myth" (This quote was falsely attributed to Ward Fenley on a public forum, when Ward has never said any such thing.)
10. the view that God didn't really create the universe

Feel free to add to this list, or add/ask for clarification in the comments section.

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Thanks Tami,
I appreciate your willingness to begin this and set the tone for an intelligent discussion.You already cleared up a few misconceptions i have had.

John
Tami,

Thank-you. Some of our most vocal critics argue that #1 is wrong therefore Covenant Creation is wrong. Where did they get there argument that that a local creation is wrong? From Tim Martin's 2nd Edition of Beyond Creation Science. We've not changed our view. It boggles the mind.

I heartily agree with everything on this list.

What is Covenenant Creation? From my perspective, it is simply the view that, from the beginning of Scripture, the phrase "Heavens and Earth" refers to the covenant people, the people of God.

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Coauthor, Beyond Creation Science, 3rd Edition
"You already cleared up a few misconceptions i have had."

Well, good, then I posted it with sound reason. :) Thanks, JJ. I hope it clarifies things for others as well.
Thanks for posting this, Tami.

I, too, agree wholeheartedly with everything on this list.

Since working on this issue of creation/flood in Genesis from a preterist perspective over the last few years, I have been surprised at how often preterists have misrepresented and distorted my views in open conversation. Frankly, the tactics and shenanigans remind me of how futurists interact with preterism all the time. Have you ever listened to futurists debate Don Preston? I don't think any of them have a clue about what Don actually believes. They just create some weird view and attribute it to Don Preston. Then they proceed to attack Don by attacking the weird caricature of their own making.

Some of us just have to deal with that problem on both ends of the Bible.

Tim Martin
www.beyondcreationscience.com
Hey Tim,
I'm glad you mention Don Preston. I had recently listened to his last debate on Covenant Radio with one of the most disgusting people i had ever heard claim to be a "Christian". I believe Don set the standard in how we are to interact with one another when debating or in a discussion. His ability to stay respectful even while being unfairly attacked is a model for all of us. Thanks for continuing in that spirit.

John
Although i haven't been able to read as much as i would like on this topic,I'm finding it interesting.I found this information and thought i would share it.

a number of prominent early Christian Church Fathers including Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Augustine, did not believe the Genesis account depicted ordinary solar days and read creation history as an allegory as well as being theologically true (however this being said, all of these men certainly did believe in a young earth[9]).

It's seems most YEC like to quote theses guys as YEC but do not admit that they also "read creation history as an allegory"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hey Tami,
I hope by us providing a place for open discussion and debate the opponents of BCS will be respectful enough to share their concerns and ask questions here and not just throw "snowballs" along with the usual straw man arguments and ad hom attacks that we are usually get from our "futurist" friends.

It seems to be popular theses days to just build your own web site and refute whatever you want and not let those you disagree with have a fair chance to disagree and present their views. If i remember correctly,Paul confronted Peter face to face.

John
Thanks, John. I agree wholeheartedly, and I hope that many will take advantage of the opportunity you have provided here for edifyng interaction.
Above I wrote:

"covenant creation" is NOT
6. a form of empiricism

Let me elaborate by providing a definition of empiricism:

the doctrine that all knowledge is derived from sense experience

"Empiricism" by definition denies supernatural or divine revelation. Empiricism is an extreme word, and it is a serious charge which is without substantiation in this case. This charge needs to be dropped. It is inflammatory, and it is blatantly false.

I understand empiricism to be the opposite end of the spectrum from a view which denies that *any* knowledge can be derived from the senses. It is this opposite extreme, for example, which would cause one to utter a statement like this one I heard recently, "my eyes tell me nothing." The apostles certainly did not believe or teach that their eyes told them nothing.

Both extremes are severe hindrances to understanding.

But to restate #6, "Covenant Creation" is NOT a form of "empiricism". Appreciating that we can learn from sensual experience and observation does not make one an "empiricist". Rather, it acknowledges a Biblical standard for verifying a testimony.
John, thank you for your kind words, and thank you for the tone and example you have set here.

Reply in 2015 to Tami's post of 2008   Is it true, "better late than never"?  Well, I just read this for the first time.  I have found two preterist forums that I like and both seem to have dried up over the last few years.

I wonder why, but now that I have some time, I am looking over the posts and discussions.

Since I have never heard the term you are posting about or what it isn't, could you say what it is?

Thanks

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