O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

I am pretty well satisfied with the scriptural support given for the belief that the Day of the Lord was not to be a worldwide event but referred to the judgment that came upon Israel during the Jewish-Roman wars.

But is it possible that there is a yet future day of wrath? It looks like there is according to the following verses...

Romans 2

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

 11For there is no respect of persons with God.

 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified...


 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

My question is, when did God render to every man according to his deeds, and when did those who doeth evil (including the Gentiles) receive indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish? Surely not in 70 ad...

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Hi John,

I am absolutely convinced of the fact that Jesus spoke of His coming in judgment during that generation. I do believe that the Day of the Lord was the vengeance of God upon His enemies and that it took place in 70 ad. My confusion comes in Romans 2 because it indicates that not only will the tribulation and anguish be upon the Jews, but upon those also who are without law. When did the Gentiles experience this wrath?





Those 'without law', ie. 'gentiles', were those who were divorced from the law (Jer 3:8) They were Israel (Northern House) who had been sifted to The Nations and they Were The Nations/Ephraim. Among the Jews there were sons of Darkness and Sons of Light and among Ephraim, there were sons of Darkness and sons of Light. All of these sons would be Judged in AD70.

'Israel' did not find what it was looking for, but only The Elect found it.

Good answer Brother Les, thank you for posting! Can you point me to any good reading on this subject?

I bought a self published book by a gentleman named Loyyd Dale, titled, 'the Wives of YHWH' (I think that is the title) He was a guest speaker on John Andersons 'Voice of Reason' for several years.

I have seen very little written else where about the Covenantal aspects of the 'Wives of YHWH/(Christ)" as in the OC Wives (mother with two daughters) and the NC Wife. Hosea lays out the prophecy very well.

Also read all of Ezekiel 2, 

Here is how it starts out.


Ezekiel 23

 1The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

 2Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

 3And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

 4And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

 5And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,

 6Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.

 7Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.

 8Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.

 9Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.

 10These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.

 11And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.

 12She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.

 13Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,

 14And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,

Brother Les,

I've been thinking about who you said the gentiles were. How does that relate to the "times of the gentiles" in Matt 24? I thought that was in regards to the Romans trampling the city for 42 months. Were others besides Ephraim called gentiles, like anyone who wasn't a Jew? 

Here is a blog I wrote a while back on that same passage. It was in response to a different question, but you may still find it pertinent to yours:

Thank you Tami, I will look into that.

Brother Les, I am still awaiting your response to the following question...

I've been thinking about who you said the gentiles were. How does that relate to the "times of the gentiles" in Matt 24? I thought that was in regards to the Romans trampling the city for 42 months. Were others besides Ephraim called gentiles, like anyone who wasn't a Jew? 

I hope to hear back from you soon, I believe there is a good answer for this. Thank you.

If any of the NT applies to gentile gentiles... then the 30ad-70ad dynamic tension would not apply to them as gentile believers. Which would mean that (hermeneutically) the scriptures written between 30ad-70ad would truly apply to a church that never directly interacted with the Old Covenant. ...and that would take the 70ad cap off, which is the sum total essence of what Preterism is all about. It would open the door toward the POSSIBILITIES of what the Preterists call "futurism" (historicism being one of those forms). Preterism was INVENTED by Catholics in the Counter Reformation in order to refute Protestant Historicism (accusing the papacy of being an 'antichrist'). So... the entire logic of Preterism is founded upon a "Don't look here! Don't look to the present! There are NO PROBLEMS to see in the present!" approach.

I suspect that I may not be telling you anything that you don't already know. The tone of your question to Brother Les leads me to suspect that you already may have suspicions about something.

Hello Raggthyme,

I make it a habit of not posting on forums on the weekend. The verse that you must mean is Luke 21:34. Matt.24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21 are all sister chapters and many times should be read and studied as a group. Being new to this forum, I would assume that "the times of the Gentiles" has been debated on this web site somewhere and that thread should be pointed out to you. I am only going by what I feel is correct at this time and am always subject to change when more information is provided.

You ask, "were others besides Ephraim called gentiles, like anyone who wasn't a Jew?"...

Do you know of whom I am speaking when I say 'Ephraim'? 'Epraim' is the younger son of Joseph. Father Jacob (Father Israel) gave Joseph The Birthright. Father Jacob adopted Josephs two sons and he (Israel) gave them The Birthright and the name and The Leadership blessings of The Nations( the nations of Israel). Let's look at the Strongs Concordance of the Hebrew meaning of 'Gentile'.


Strong's H1471 - gowy




gō'·ē (Key)

Parts of Speech

masculine noun, proper masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

Apparently from the same root as גֵּוָה (H1465)

TWOT Reference

Outline of Biblical Usage

n m

1) nation, people

a) nation, people

1) usually of non-Hebrew people

2) of descendants of Abraham

3) of Israel

b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m

c) Goyim? = "nations"


Just as the 'term' 'Israel' has several meanings, the term 'Gentile' also has several meanings. The Bible is all about the Covenantal Peoples of YHWH. 'We' think that 'Israel' are the Covenat Peoples of YHWH.... This is very true that 'Israel' is/are/were/will be the Covenant Peoples of YHWH/Jesus.... But it is the 'who' that are within 'Israel' that will determine the Covenantal Judgements of Wrath for some and the Covenatal Blessings of others that are called 'Israel'. 'Israel' had within it 'sons of Darkness and sons of Light'. It is the Northen House that is called 'Israel', for the Southern House is Judah. Yes.... all are 'sons'.... of Abraham..... some of Agar and some of Sarah (see the book of Galations). Just as Paul laid out that the sons of Abraham are by Faith and not by Works, then those of Ephraim (who was given the Birthright and Never Lost it) who became 'as' Gentiles by works, could be RE-deemed (brought Back into Covenant) by Grace through Faith.

There could be NO New Covenant if the Gentiles were not brought into the Covenantal Marriage. The House of Judah Could not fulfill what was Promised to The Fathers in order for the NC to come about. The Promises to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ, was for All of the Tabernacal (House) of David to come into Covenant with YHWH/Christ. And please understand that this is NOT a 'blood' 'Ressurection' from The Death' by whose blood line they were from, but by the Line of Faith that they have. This demands that any and all of the Goyim/nations/dogs/barbarians/Prosylites who have Faith in Christ are deemed Righteous and are named among The Body/ The Church/ which is The Israel of the Sons of Light.


clearn as mud?




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