Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 Picking up a discussion that started about Satan and his role hoping to get understanding of various views on who satan is. This is basically an off shoot of a discussion started by Joy

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Euripides,

As from the other thread:

Who are you saying is Adam, and who are you saying is Eve? You wrote:

Adam the man knew this - it was Israel who willingly and voluntarily accepted the covenant with God. Yes - Israel deliberately sinned against God. The woman knew of the requirements of the Law but her indoctrination into pagan beliefs from a child was ingrained in her mind and she was unable to resist her natural instincts

You also wrote:

This passage in Timothy is just an explanation of why in the ekklesia the role of men and women were to be different.

And what explanation was given for the roles to be different? How do you understand that reason?

JIR

In my opinion we won't know who is Adam and who is Eve. As I mentioned before, perhaps every Israelite man could see Adam in himself, and every Israelite woman could see Eve. Perhaps Eve was a non-Israelite woman? Perhaps Adam was a king of Israel or more likely a High Priest? This is all speculation - how can we know?

As far as 1 Timothy 2 is concerned, Paul rebukes the women who are making themselves beautiful on the outside but behaving badly and not demonstrating much in the way of any change from within themselves. Paul uses the the Genesis account that Adam was formed first and that it was Eve who was deceived to keep the women in their place. He writes in chapter 3 that "  the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything"

That's all.

Thanks Euripides for the explanation.

I take it you thus find Adam in Genesis as a single human? and not a a telling of Israel's story after or during the exile? For if we cannot tell anything else, must we not accept the face value of the account i.e. Adam and Eve were real people not representatives of people.

Taking it from Timothy, Paul's argument wouldnt have made any sense unless Adam referred to the male species and Eve to the female species right?

The point being that from the way that Paul speaks of Adam, we must conclude that Adam was a particular male human being and if that it so, then the serpent which tempted his wife would naturally become a real separate being rather than simply being bad thoughts in Eve's mind.

How do you understand the way Paul uses Adam in Timothy and what that tells us about Adam in Genesis (if anything at all)?

I don't agree with your conclusions nor your interpretation of my post

How do you understand the way Paul uses Adam in Timothy and what that tells us about Adam in Genesis (if anything at all)?

Your answer will undoubtedly aid in clarifying your view (which I have misinterpreted), for it [your answer] will provide a means to for me to better understand who you find Adam to be (and by implication, the serpent).

In other words, Timothy is a check on the validity of your understanding of who Adam is, for your understanding of Adam must relate directly to how Paul uses Adam in Timothy.

Did you actually read my first post?

I will repeat the first words here: "In my opinion we won't know who is Adam and who is Eve"

This is a check on the validity of your understanding of what I wrote,

Yes, I did read your first post.

But as far as I understand your answer, we cannot tell anything about Adam from Paul's use of the Genesis account, like you said, "we wont know..."

IF I am understanding you correctly, then this is the challenge I have with your view, for I believe that a correct understanding of Adam should be compatible with Paul's use of Adam in Timothy and elsewhere. When the framework we come up with about who or what Adam was, results in inability to understand how Paul used "Adam and Eve" then I find it suspect.

JIR

That's OK - you are perfectly in your rights to challenge anything and I am not here to persuade anyone to conform to my own beliefs or understanding

If you dont mind, how do you understand genealogies e.g. Gen 5 or Luke 3 when they refer to Adam?

The genealogies confirm the the ancestry of Yeshua Ben-Joseph back through David and Abraham which probably no other Jew in his day could be able to match

Adam also appears to be the first man to enter into a covenant relationship with God - which is important as Yeshua was the first man to keep that covenant 100% and therefore be the first Israelite worthy to be the first man of the new covenant. As Adam was the first man of the old covenant.

Thanks.

In the beginning God created POLARITY.  Flesh vs Spirit.  Moses lifted up the SERPENT in the wilderness; Jesus was lifted up in the wilderness of Judea.  The flesh is diametrically opposed to the Spirit.  'I will put ENMITY between your SEED and her SEED.'  Flesh vs Spirit.  'The CARNAL MIND is ENMITY towards God.'  Flesh vs Spirit.  Hagar vs Sarah; old Jersualem vs New Jerusalem; death vs life..

Our flesh is our SERPENT; therefore, we must crucify it.

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