Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Are Angels real spiritual beings in our New Testament and can they still manifest to humans today?

I have been reading some of the posts about whether or not Satan was a real spiritual being or rather just the manifestation of evil in the hearts of man (or possibly the Jewish pharisees, those against God, the adversary, etc. if I understood the alternatives to his being real correctly?), and in doing so there was some discussion about angels as well.  I felt the need to start a new thread devoted to angels to keep it separate from a satan thread.

First, I am not sure why if Satan is considered unlikely to be a separate entity, Angels would also have to be not a true entity?  If Angels aren't real then who came to Mary and Joseph and the Shepherds?  As well as other events, such as the tomb on resurrection morning?  

It is a two part question, because regardless of answers to the first question, I am very interested for a specific reason, as to what people who understand Preterism much better than I, think about the likelihood of the manifestation of Angels to people now in this present New Covenant Age?   

I am learning a lot here and am very open to viewpoints on this, but have a very hard time believing that Angels are not real.  One thing I will point out is how Christ was said to have been made a little lower than the Angels and also how we are told we will be like the angels (not given in marriage etc.) in heaven. 

I am sorry I do not know scripture verses to quote exactly like others here seem to… I know the basics but have to go searching for most of them… are there links here that might help me find them?  I notice that people post scripture and when you mouse over it the scripture shows up without having to leave the page but I don't know how to do that.  

I am learning so much here and thank you all for your time in helping me understand what is a very different way of understanding scripture from what I have ever been taught, but one I am finding very enlightening, and it is removing so many old seeming contradictions!  

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Brian

So you think that David is composing a song which tells "angels" to praise the Lord and which congratulates them on obeying the Law of Moses?

The word "angels" has been translated as such by people who were not totally honest as they too had been influenced by the pagan beliefs which still permeate Christianity today. 

 

The original word is מַלְאָך or "malak" which really means a messenger. The deluded translators have used the word "angel" The messengers that David is referring to are the old testament prophets - human beings and not some mythical spirit entity.

That was of course from the OT  Here is one from the New Testament  Notice the reference to "heavenly host" as in Psalm 103:

Luke 2 (NIV)

And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.
An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. 12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven,
    and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”

16 So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. 17 When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, 18 and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. 19 But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.

21 On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise the child, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he was conceived.

Do you see how scripture explains itself?


No I don't. All I see is what I posted here originally which was "During God's dealings with physical Israel and on a very few occasions, He projected a temporary "angelos" for His own purposes"

The angelos were not real but visions. Only the ones to whom the messages were intended could see or hear the angelos


And at this pivotal time in the hstory of mankind, was one of the few times that God projected angelos

 

Groan...

I just composed a reply to this that took me an hour to write. As I was finishing, I hit a key and "poof", all my remarks were gone. :(

No more heart left to write it again....

Oh, Doug, I know that feeling. Its happened to me twice...Gutted is the word that comes to mind. I hope you will still share a few lines or so sometime.

 

 

Hey guys… I feel your pain which why without fail I ALWAYS do any post notes FIRST and simply in a word doc, saving as I go. There’s nothing worse than spending all that time and “poof” it’s gone. :(

I am always reading of angels appearing to people. This is especially true in life and death situations.

But back to the discussion. Here are some statistics I just dug up. I think they are peruasive:

The mention of angels is inclusive in Scripture. Depending on the Bible translation searched, these celestial beings are referred to from 294 to 305 times in the Bible.

References to angels occur at least 116 times in the Old Testament and 175 times in the New Testament.


These many references are found in at least 34 books from the very earliest books (whether Job or Genesis) to the last book of the Bible (Revelation).


“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him” (Col. 1:16).

 
 

No, well of course, I didn't expect you too and, no doubt, no amount of scripture will persuade you otherwise. It is obvious to me that you have already made up your mind and are closed to alternatives to YOUR interpretation which YOU have simply assumed and are tying to impose on others.

Any approach that forces scripture to say what it DOES NOT say, is highly suspect, in my view. 

.No doubt you will now hurl denunciations in my direction for daring to challenge your opinion.
Good luck with that!  :)

 

Brian

I really try and not force my beliefs on anyone. This never works - only God can reveal the truth to us.

In my younger years I did believe in angels and demons and a real life Satan. The church that I used to attend also taught these things

But now I see things very differently and understand the scriptures in a different way - that's all

Regards

Phil (Euripides)

Here are some of my thoughts on the subject.  The Old Covenant was 'ordained by angels' but the New is not subjected to angels.  Heb 2:5.  The angels longed to look into the mystery of the gospel. 1 Pet 1:12.  Angels carried out the sword,famine, plagues, death of the old covenant, as revealed in Revelation. The Old was passing away Heb 8:13 and passed with the old order of the earthly kingdom.

When God appeared to Abraham, two of the three beings were angels and those two went on to Sodom...
When God appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, no angels were present. The witnesses were those whom God spoke to after the incident.  Does that mean that angels have no part in our world today?  I believe so, otherwise, those who have been visited would be deemed as 'exclusive' or 'special' and the scripture makes it plain that we are all one in Christ Jesus and God does not show favoritism.  

The worship of angels is forbidden and it appears that those who claim visitation are worshiping the angel and not God.  Why would God send an angel when HE dwells with us?












ALL,

I know this is an older thread, but I believe it is still helpful to study. Angelology (the study of angels) is an old topic. It goes back to OT times. The rabbis who wanted "more" than the scriptures invented an entire cosmology to explain them. It bordered on gnosticism (the attitude that one "knows" things that others don't), and gnosticism is roundly condemned in the NT.

In any case, wanting to know about angels is not inherently wrong. But it shouldn't become an obsession. If God wanted us to know more about them, He would have made it more plain in scripture. Genesis first exposes us to the concept of other beings besides God Himself. Interestingly, the first mention of an other supernatural being is the description of "the serpent" who could talk. 

Naturally, a talking beast is a strange thing to us. But to Adam and Eve, perhaps not so much. After all, here they were, being newly created, drinking in all the wondrous things around them. So they are walking in the garden, and what should appear? A talking serpent! OK, odd but maybe not so odd as to be unbelievable to Adam and Eve. They went with it and had discussions with it.

I have a hard time believing that this was some kind of delusion in their minds. After all, they had not yet sinned, so the idea of evil in their minds hadn't even happened. I suppose one could imagine that they had a rebellious attitude, and the "serpent" was a stand-in for the still forming rebellion in their minds that was soon to occur. One could make a case for this by applying James 1:14 (ever man is tempted when he is drawn away by hos own lust...). But OTOH, James is not a proof text, it is a principle James is trying to explain that places the penalty of sin on the individual, not on another being, like the devil. We are all answerable to God for our own sin. But I digress....

Anyway, this evil being first appears prior to any explanation about the "other side", the righteous angels. As scripture unfolds in subsequent pages of the bible, we see many mentions made of angels and heavenly creatures. Ezekiel has a vision where God Himself is revealed as riding on some kind of vehicle carried about by "angels" or "beasts". Same kind of concept as in Genesis (the serpent was more subtle than all the other "beasts" of the field) Ancients had no problem in believing that there were other beings (beasts) that were not common but were real. They had no problem believing there were things they couldn't see in their everyday world, but were real nonetheless. It is only in our modern world where everything has to be proven by scientific experimentation that our "scientifically trained" minds have a hard time believing that if we can't see it, then it must not exist. Personally I find this attitude hypocritical, since science has revealed lots of things that we cannot see normally, like bacteria, atomic particles, etc. Why then does science categorically deny the existence of intelligent beings like angels just because we can't see them? In fact, it is even more hypocritical and reveals how mad seeks to separate himself from God's knowledge because there is a huge interest in "aliens" in scientific circles. It seems perfectly OK to be a scientist and believe in extra-terrestrial life, but NOT believe in supernatural life. It's OK it seems to think that there are creatures that can, at will, hide themselves from us (aliens), but it is NOT OK to believe that there are creatures that can, at will, hide themselves from us (angels)!!! Do you see the hypocrisy? The main reason science does this is because to admit there are angels would be to admit there is a God. And to admit there is a God admits that there is a being who requires us to change our behavior. It is that attitude that is the same attitude that is at the heart of what Adam and Eve did in the garden. Namely, rebellion!

I suppose we should ask ourselves the same question. Are we attempting to find reasons to NOT believe in angels exist? Since scripture is clear that there are invisible beings other than God, I see no reason to explain them away as some kind of metaphysical trick of our minds. They don't need to be allegorized or metaphorized. I think the problem we have as modern humans is that we have overly relied upon the scientific method as the way to discover all things. That may be true for that which is physical. That which can be perceived by human senses and the extension of our senses by instruments is a wonderful thing. But realistically, isn't it true that that which was invisible only a few generations ago is now made visible by science? Then what gives us a right to be so arrogant as to think that there might be things which exist that are in another dimension, and that those things are superior to us? If then they are superior to us, then we have no right to demand that they show themselves. It must be unilateral on their part whether they choose to reveal their existence to us.

Bottom line is that they HAVE chosen to reveal themselves! Unfortunately, the book that reveals them is what is really being rejected, since it doesn't fit neatly into post-modern, strictly physical and amoral thinking. If one wishes to know about angels, one ought to go to the source of where those superior beings chose to show themselves - that is, the bible. The word of God is the foundation of knowledge. I will leave you with a final scripture: 

1Tim 6:20-21

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of knowledge {science} falsely so called, Which some, professing, have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

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