O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
I have been reading some of the posts about whether or not Satan was a real spiritual being or rather just the manifestation of evil in the hearts of man (or possibly the Jewish pharisees, those against God, the adversary, etc. if I understood the alternatives to his being real correctly?), and in doing so there was some discussion about angels as well. I felt the need to start a new thread devoted to angels to keep it separate from a satan thread.
First, I am not sure why if Satan is considered unlikely to be a separate entity, Angels would also have to be not a true entity? If Angels aren't real then who came to Mary and Joseph and the Shepherds? As well as other events, such as the tomb on resurrection morning?
It is a two part question, because regardless of answers to the first question, I am very interested for a specific reason, as to what people who understand Preterism much better than I, think about the likelihood of the manifestation of Angels to people now in this present New Covenant Age?
I am learning a lot here and am very open to viewpoints on this, but have a very hard time believing that Angels are not real. One thing I will point out is how Christ was said to have been made a little lower than the Angels and also how we are told we will be like the angels (not given in marriage etc.) in heaven.
I am sorry I do not know scripture verses to quote exactly like others here seem to… I know the basics but have to go searching for most of them… are there links here that might help me find them? I notice that people post scripture and when you mouse over it the scripture shows up without having to leave the page but I don't know how to do that.
I am learning so much here and thank you all for your time in helping me understand what is a very different way of understanding scripture from what I have ever been taught, but one I am finding very enlightening, and it is removing so many old seeming contradictions!
So you think that David is composing a song which tells "angels" to praise the Lord and which congratulates them on obeying the Law of Moses?
The word "angels" has been translated as such by people who were not totally honest as they too had been influenced by the pagan beliefs which still permeate Christianity today.
The original word is מַלְאָך or "malak" which really means a messenger. The deluded translators have used the word "angel" The messengers that David is referring to are the old testament prophets - human beings and not some mythical spirit entity.
That was of course from the OT Here is one from the New Testament Notice the reference to "heavenly host" as in Psalm 103:
Luke 2 (NIV)
8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. 9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. 12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven,
and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”
15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”
16 So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. 17 When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, 18 and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. 19 But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.
21 On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise the child, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he was conceived.
Do you see how scripture explains itself?
No I don't. All I see is what I posted here originally which was "During God's dealings with physical Israel and on a very few occasions, He projected a temporary "angelos" for His own purposes"
The angelos were not real but visions. Only the ones to whom the messages were intended could see or hear the angelos
And at this pivotal time in the hstory of mankind, was one of the few times that God projected angelos
I just composed a reply to this that took me an hour to write. As I was finishing, I hit a key and "poof", all my remarks were gone. :(
No more heart left to write it again....
Oh, Doug, I know that feeling. Its happened to me twice...Gutted is the word that comes to mind. I hope you will still share a few lines or so sometime.
Hey guys… I feel your pain which why without fail I ALWAYS do any post notes FIRST and simply in a word doc, saving as I go. There’s nothing worse than spending all that time and “poof” it’s gone. :(
I am always reading of angels appearing to people. This is especially true in life and death situations.
But back to the discussion. Here are some statistics I just dug up. I think they are peruasive:
The mention of angels is inclusive in Scripture. Depending on the Bible translation searched, these celestial beings are referred to from 294 to 305 times in the Bible.
References to angels occur at least 116 times in the Old Testament and 175 times in the New Testament.
These many references are found in at least 34 books from the very earliest books (whether Job or Genesis) to the last book of the Bible (Revelation).
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him” (Col. 1:16).
No, well of course, I didn't expect you too and, no doubt, no amount of scripture will persuade you otherwise. It is obvious to me that you have already made up your mind and are closed to alternatives to YOUR interpretation which YOU have simply assumed and are tying to impose on others.
Any approach that forces scripture to say what it DOES NOT say, is highly suspect, in my view.
.No doubt you will now hurl denunciations in my direction for daring to challenge your opinion.
Good luck with that! :)
I really try and not force my beliefs on anyone. This never works - only God can reveal the truth to us.
In my younger years I did believe in angels and demons and a real life Satan. The church that I used to attend also taught these things
But now I see things very differently and understand the scriptures in a different way - that's all
Here are some of my thoughts on the subject. The Old Covenant was 'ordained by angels' but the New is not subjected to angels. Heb 2:5. The angels longed to look into the mystery of the gospel. 1 Pet 1:12. Angels carried out the sword,famine, plagues, death of the old covenant, as revealed in Revelation. The Old was passing away Heb 8:13 and passed with the old order of the earthly kingdom.
When God appeared to Abraham, two of the three beings were angels and those two went on to Sodom...
When God appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, no angels were present. The witnesses were those whom God spoke to after the incident. Does that mean that angels have no part in our world today? I believe so, otherwise, those who have been visited would be deemed as 'exclusive' or 'special' and the scripture makes it plain that we are all one in Christ Jesus and God does not show favoritism.
The worship of angels is forbidden and it appears that those who claim visitation are worshiping the angel and not God. Why would God send an angel when HE dwells with us?