O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Comment by sam 11 hours ago
I would tell her to read Chilton's Paradise Restored. That book answers all her questions from a biblical perspective.
Comment by Norm 2 hours ago
Do we really want to buy everything that David Chilton believed when he wrote “Paradise Restored” in 1985?
Here is the book online link and some excerpts.
“Not only is it true that there will always be a faithful minority among Israel, but God’s word also teaches that someday a majority among ethnic Israel will be saved. The people of Israel, as a whole, will turn back to the faith of their fathers and will acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Their fall into apostasy is not permanent, says Paul. For just as their excommunication resulted in the salvation of the Gentiles, the salvation of the Gentiles will someday result in the restoration of Israel:”
“For Jesus specifically said that whoever believes in Him will be raised “at the Last Day.” That means that all Christians will be resurrected at the Last Day. Again, 1 Thessalonians 4 says that all believers will be raised at the Rapture.”
Also I’m not sure Chilton would agree with Sam’s renewed earth concept as he has the faithful going to Heaven at the end of his futurist world and says that paradise is now and not some post renewed earth that Sam postulates. Chilton appears here to be more in lockstep with those who oppose Sam’s view although he does let his “Dominion Rule” ideas grow as good futurist at this stage in his understanding.
THE NEW CREATION
“Well, finally we’ve gotten to a place in Revelation where everyone’s agreed, right? “The new heaven and earth” – that’s got to be literal, referring to eternity after the end of the world, right? Wrong. Or, to be absolutely precise, I should say: Yes and no. The truth is that the Bible tells us very little about heaven; just enough, in fact, to let us know we’re going there. But the primary concern of Scripture is the present life. Of course, the blessings of the final chapters of Revelation do refer to heaven. It is not really an “either/or” kind of an issue. But what is important is that these things are true now. Heaven is a continuation and perfection of what is true of the Church in this life. We are not simply to look forward to these blessings in an eternity to come, but to enjoy them and rejoice in them here and now. John was telling the early Church of present realities, of blessings that existed already and would be on the increase as the gospel extended and renewed the earth.” Emphasis mine
“This cannot be speaking of heaven, or of a time after the end of the world; for in this “new heaven and earth” there is still death (at a very advanced age – “the lifetime of a tree”), people are building, planting, working, and having children. We could spend the rest of this chapter examining the implications of this passage in Isaiah, but the only point I will make here is that it is clearly a statement about this age, before the end of the world, and shows what future generations can expect as the gospel permeates the world, restores the earth to Paradise, and brings to fruition the goals of the Kingdom.”
Again Chilton seems to part ways with Sam in His Heaven now application contrasted to Sam’s renewed earth at the end.
“Ultimately, this will be fulfilled in heaven to the utmost extent. But we must recognize that it is true already. God has wiped away our tears. The proof of this is the obvious difference between Christian and pagan funerals: we grieve, but not as those who have no hope (1 Thess. 4:13 ). God has taken away the sting of death (1 Cor. 15:55-58 ). And most striking is the following phrase: “The first things have passed away. . . . Behold, I am making all things new.” Where have we read that before? It comes from 2 Corinthians 5:17 : “Therefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” Is this true now? Of course!”
Comment by sam 2 hours ago
Your ability to completely fail to understand authors is amazing. First, Chilton is a POSMILLENNIALIST. The earth is TRANSFORMED at the end of history. Second, on page 223 he lists his arguments for the book. See number 5? "EARTH IS RESTORED AS A WHOLE" - which he argued for in chapters 3-7! The book itself is called PARADISE RESTORED. Where is it restored, Norm? EARTH! It's the argument of his entire book! Have you read it? He is using the "expanding/enlarging" imagery. The first "expanse" was given to Adam: be fruitful and multiply. How many kids could they have, and their kids, before the Garden was full? The Garden GROWS (growth imagery). This expanding the tent pegs image is found in Ezekiel and Isaiah, and Paul picks it up in Galatians, and Jesus uses it in his parables.....Norm....read the book, buddy, before you go off making statements about something you don't know.
Comment by Edward W. Goodie 1 hour ago
Since when is quoting the author called an inability to understand them?
Comment by Norm 1 hour ago
You need to pay closer attention to what I wrote and posted.
I said ... "Chilton appears here to be more in lockstep with those who oppose Sam’s view although he does let his “Dominion Rule” ideas grow as good futurist at this stage in his understanding.
Did you somehow miss his point that the earth ends and everyone resides in Heaven? When did he change to your view that the faithful all end up here back on earth at its end? Or have you changed your view again?
Sam you obviously like to selectively read Chilton yourself.
You are essentially arguing with Chilton as it's obvious from the quotes above that he is not posturing the same ideas that you are. Is there some similarities yes but I'll let his quotes speak for themself.
Comment by sam 46 minutes ago
Are you for real? Are you actually saying chilton denied a transformed earth? I am not "selectively" reading chilton.....you are. I am reading ALL of what he said. ALL of it. And, he is emphatic on his point. Read the chapters, Norm, 3-7......
Comment by Wanda Short 43 minutes ago
Thanks for this enlightening discussion gentlemen! I would recommend just a tad bit more testosterone thrown around would really help your points hit home for me. Just a thought. Blessings.
Comment by Micah Martin 34 minutes ago
Quoting Chilton, especially "Paradise Restored", is always going to be a tough exercise. He clearly understood and admitted that his embracing of full-preterism would cause him to have to re-examine his old conclusions. He also admitted that certain things he wrote in "Paradise Restored" should have pushed him over to full-preterism much earlier. Unfortunately, he passed away at a relatively young age. I really wish he would have had more time though because he was a great example of someone seeking the Truth of the Bible no matter where it lead or what consequences it brought. I display his books proudly on my bookshelf because he does lay out the framework for full-preterism in "Paradise Restored" you just have to ignore the inconsistencies that he later came to reject. It would have been nice if he had lived long enough to write a part two.
He was instrumental in my journey, and will always hold a special place in my heart.
It saddens me that other partial preterist, like James Jordan, Gentry and DeMar are holding out so long. Chilton would have enjoyed the time they have to work through the ramifications of full-preterism. Unfortunately, the longer they hold out, the less time they will have to re-work their previous writings. In the end, there may be many regrets. Time marches on and waits for no man.
Comment by sam 22 minutes ago
Please read my recent article on Chilton. He didn't "come out" as much as FP tout him as doing. In fact, he sounds a whole lot like me:
Comment by Norm 13 minutes ago
I have stated now for the third time that Chilton has similarites with you and has a "growing" to the kingdom. Yet you are still ignoring my main point that he also has the faithful in Heaven post mortem and at the end of the world which is how he differs from you on your postulation if I understand you correctly, which I may indeed not.
Are you then agreeing with Chilton as he postulates that the earth does end and there is no paradise on earth after this ending? He has earth becoming paradise before it ends and which he says is happening now. I know he is presenting "some" of what you have started agreeing with on the future transformation of paradise on Earth and both of you have an ending as well. However he has us ultimately in Heaven while it seems that you have us brought back to the fuller even more restored Earth after the end of procreation. Is that about right for you Sam? Maybe it would help if you outlined your agreements with Chilton and if you have any disagreements. However recognize that he wrote this in 1985 when he was still strongly in the futurist camp. Surely you have some disagreements with some of his thoughts that are clearly futurist?
Sam continues "Dave Green recently posted a response to my Chilton papers. Apparently, the Ph.D. in Theology, with an MDiv from Westminster, needs more than “6 months” to figure out where he is going. I have only two MA degrees, and it’s taken about 2 months for me to see the ramifications of where I am going. I guess, according to Dave, I am smarter than David Chilton! Not!"
Sam 2005 "Traditional Calvinism cannot be compatible with Preterism precisely because it is a system built upon an end of history. However, cannot one take the principles of what Augustine and Calvin taught (along with Luther) and rework them so that we can drop what needs to be dropped (like progressive sanctification), and keep what can be kept'?
So which is it? Five years or two months?
Folks, David Chilton performs a lot of good work there is no doubt and his book is helpful but it is always important to remember that he was a postmillennialist who believed that we are still in the time of the New Exodus before the end of the world and the resurrection. Much of what he writes early on is tainted with this perspective and especially in this 1985 book of his “Paradise Restored”. Chilton in other words writes much of Paradise Restored through a mindset that we are still living in the days often described in the NT preceding the AD70 fall. This is monumental to understand about his viewpoint as most of us have been in that same mindset to differing degrees before we came to full Preterism. You cannot understate the importance of this factor upon Chilton’s early work. We simply do not know how Chilton would have addressed these errors if he had lived but it seems obvious that he would have had to rethink his book significantly.
“The Postmiliennialists say that the Millennium refers to the period between the First and Second Advents of Christ; the Millennium is going on now, with Christians reigning as kings on earth.”
“As I have also tried to show, the answer is given throughout Scripture. Postmillennialism – the eschatology of dominion — is the message of the whole Bible.”
Notice below in Chilton’s discussion of the 1000 year reign of Postmillennialism how he mirrors the Great Commission of going into all the world to reach the Gentiles as still ongoing in his application. Most full Preterist realize that he is pulling from Gospel fulfillment language up to AD70. Don’t get me wrong though that I’m saying the healing of the Nations ended at AD70 but we simply need to keep the scriptures applicable to their context. It is dangerous to then to appropriate Chilton’s work here without always keeping in context that he was writing from a futurist Dominion Rule perspective.
Chilton on Dominion Rule:
“If the Church faithfully calls upon God to judge murderers and persecutors, what will happen? The answer is given in the whole Book of Revelation: God’s angels will cast fire upon the earth, and the wicked will be consumed. But we must remember that the coals of Gods vengeance must come from the sitar. God’s fiery wrath issues from His throne, where we meet Him in public worship. A “resistance movement” that is not centered in worship will come under the judgment of God. In principle, it is like Nadab and Abihu’s offering of “strange fire” (Lev. 10:1-2).”
More Chilton below:
“The thrones in Revelation 20:4 stand for the reign of the saints, the faithful overcomes who are victorious over the Dragon and the Beast (Rev. 12:9-11). Our rule is going on now, on this earth (Matt. 19:28; Luke 18:28-30; 22:29-30; Eph. 2:6), and the extent of our rule coincides with the progress of the gospel. As it increases, so does the dominion of Christians. The two go together, as Jesus stated in His Great Commission (Matt. 2:18-20): we are to teach and disciple the nations, and as they are discipled to the commands of God’s Word, the boundaries of the Kingdom will expand. Eventually, through evangelism, the reign of Christians will become so extensive that “the earth will be full of the knowledge of God, as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9). Edenic blessings will abound across the world as God’s law is increasingly obeyed (Lev. 26:3-13; Deut. 28:1-14). What a tremendous motive for worldwide evangelism! In fact, this view of worldwide conversion has been the basic inspiration for missionary activity throughout the history of the Church, particularly since the Protestant Reformation (for documentation of this, see Iain Murray’s excellent book, The Puritan
Hope: Revival and the Interpretation of Prophecy)”
The Last Battle
“The Bible does not teach that absolutely everyone in the world will be converted. The symbolism of Ezekiel’s prophecy suggests that some areas of the world will remain unrenewed by the River of Life (Ezek. 47:11). And we know that both the wheat and the tares will grow together until the harvest at the end of the world (Matt. 13:37-43). At that point, as the potential of both groups comes to maturity, as each side becomes fully
self-conscious in its determination to obey or rebel, there will be a final conflict. The Dragon will be released for a short time, to deceive the nations one more time in a last-ditch attempt to overthrow the Kingdom (Rev. 20:7-8).Emphasis mine
The purpose of Revelation 20 is not to give a detailed outline of the end of the world, for that does not fall within the scope of the book. Revelation was written to tell first-century Christians about things which were to happen shortly, especially dealing with the Church’s struggle against the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Harlot. These all meet their doom by the end of the prophecy. But, of course, behind all the evil conspiracies of the Church’s enemies is the shadowy figure of the Dragon. So John gives a brief sketch of his fate, from Christ’s definitive triumph over him until the Last Day, when the Dragon and his evil seed are destroyed and the people of God are fully and finally victorious; when Paradise, in the most complete sense, is restored and consummated.”
End chilton excerpts:
Do you see above that Chilton has the end of the Postmillennial era based upon the first century concept preceding AD70 and its consummation. Does anyone think that Chilton would not have addressed this problem significantly? Yet Sam Frost wants to use Chilton’s flawed approach for his model of fuller Preterism now.
Sam I moved your last post to this discussion to respect Ted's wishes. Here is your last post.
chilton firmly believed in a transformation of this earth, not an end to earth. That's what it's "growing" toward. He does not believe that God restores earth, then annihilates it! He made this very, very, very plain in Paradise Restored. His view is essentially what Wright is saying. I realize that some of you CoC guys, with "heaven only", this is new to you. But, in Reformed thought, this is not new at all it is found from Origen onwards.
It appears to me in Chilton's own words that he believed in Both as evidenced by this quote. Can you explain to me what Chilton means when he says the "end of the world" below. Also Wright is clear that he is calling for a Paradise on Earth at the final ressurection not as Chilton calls for with an ever increasing renewal. Two different methods there going on with those two guys from what I'm seeing. As Bryan Lewis is noting on your RCM site one needs to realize that Reformed and full Pretersim don't mix.
“This cannot be speaking of heaven, or of a time after the end of the world; for in this “new heaven and earth” there is still death (at a very advanced age – “the lifetime of a tree”), people are building, planting, working, and having children. We could spend the rest of this chapter examining the implications of this passage in Isaiah, but the only point I will make here is that it is clearly a statement about this age, before the end of the world, and shows what future generations can expect as the gospel permeates the world, restores the earth to Paradise, and brings to fruition the goals of the Kingdom.”Page 204
I asked you about your statement that Chilton doesn't see an end to the physical world and gave you his quote above. What is your answer?
Here is Chilton on the ongoing increase of the Renewed H & E.
Our rule is going on now, on this earth (Matt. 19:28; Luke 18:28-30; 22:29-30; Eph. 2:6), and the extent of our rule coincides with the progress of the gospel. As it increases, so does the dominion of Christians. The two go together, as Jesus stated in His Great Commission (Matt. 2:18-20): we are to teach and disciple the nations, and as they are discipled to the commands of God’s Word, the boundaries of the Kingdom will expand. Eventually, through evangelism, the reign of Christians will become so extensive that “the earth will be full of the knowledge of God, as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9). Edenic blessings will abound across the world as God’s law is increasingly obeyed
Do you have access to Chilton’s written lectures on the New H & E after he professed full Preterism?
Of course Sam as I have pointed out in my previous post that Postmillennialism is built upon the concept of the 1000 years as ongoing. This embeds significant flaws in its assumptions and should change significantly how one explains things. What was once thought to extend for a long period of time in postmillennialism should now be recognized as having fulfillment by AD70. That's a major paradigm change there.
I thought it might be good to have Chiltons Summary available for reference, so here it is.
THE ESCHATOLOGY OF DOMINION: A SUMMARY
For those who like their eschatology wrapped up in a neat package, I have listed 45 of the major arguments of this book, in the general order in which they were presented (chapter numbers are in parentheses). The reader should consider each one in the light of the Biblical arguments in the text of the book. Following these “Theses on Hope” is a brief section answering some of the common misunderstandings of the eschatology of dominion.
Theses on Hope
1. The Bible teaches us to have hope, not despair; to expect victory and dominion for the gospel, not flight and defeat. (1)
2. Biblical prophecy is written in both literal and symbolic language. The choice is not between “liberalism” and “symbolism,” but between a Biblical and a speculative method of interpreting
the Bible. (2)
3. Salvation is re-creatiorz. In redemption, Jesus Christ restores man to the image of God. (3)
4. Salvation and its blessings are presented in the Bible as definitive, progressive, and final.
5. We are not saved out of our environment; rather, salvation works to restore the earth as a whole. God’s Holy Mountain (the Garden) will grow until it fills the entire world. (3-7) emphasis mine
6. God blesses obedience and curses disobedience; this pattern will become dominant as history progresses. (3-7)
7. Through generations of obedience, the godly will increasingly become competent and powerful, while the ungodly will grow weak and impotent. (3-7)
8. The wicked are “raptured” first (i.e., driven out of the earth and disinherited), as the righteous increasingly come into possession of all things. (6)
9. Jesus Christ came as the Son of Man (the Second Adam), to setup God’s Kingdom on the earth. (8)
10. The Biblical prophecies that Christ would reign as King were fulfilled in Christ’s enthronement at His Ascension. (8)
11. Daniel’s prophecy of the Son of Man “coming in the clouds” was fulfilled in the Ascension of Christ. (8)
12. Jesus Christ definitively defeated and bound Satan and the demons in His Atonement, Resurrection, and Ascension. (8)
13. The Kingdom was established during the First Advent of Christ (including the Judgment of A.D. 70); it is now in progress and will increase until the end of the world. (8-16)
14. Ethnic Israel was excommunicated for its apostasy and will never again be God’s Kingdom.
15. The Kingdom is now made up of all those (Jew and Gentile) who have been redeemed by Jesus Christ. (9)
16. The Church is now the Temple of God, having been indwelt by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and fully established at the destruction of the old Temple in A.D. 70. (10-13)
17. The Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) is not about the Second Coming of Christ. It is a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. (10-11)
18. The Great Tribulation took place in the Fall of Israel. It will not be repeated and thus is not a future event (although Christians in every age have had to endure suffering for the
19. The Bible does not prophesy any future literal Temple or sacrificial system to be set up in Jerusalem. The Biblical prophecies of the Temple refer to Christ and His Church, definitively,
progressively, and finally. (10-13)
20. Although Israel will someday be restored to the true faith, the Bible does not tell of any future plan for Israel as a special nation. (14)
21. The Biblical language of de-creation (the “collapsing universe”) is symbolic of God’s judgment, especially reminiscent of the Flood and the plagues on Egypt at the Exodus. (15)
22. Antichrist is a term used by John to describe the widespread apostasy of the Christian Church prior to the Fall of Jerusalem. In general, any apostate teacher or system can be called “antichrist”; but the word does not refer to some “future The Eschatology of Dominion: A Summary 225 Fuhrer.” (12-13)
23. The “Great Apostasy” happened in the first century. We therefore have no Biblical warrant to expect increasing apostasy as history progresses; instead, we should expect the increasing Christianization of the world. (12-13)
24. The Last Days is a Biblical expression for the period between Christ’s Advent and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70: the “last days” of Israel. (13)
25. Before the Second Coming of Christ, the vast majority of Jews and Gentiles will be converted to the Christian faith. (14)
26. All of Christ’s enemies are gradually being subdued under His reign from heaven. He will remain in heaven until all enemies have been defeated. The last enemy, Death, will be destroyed when He returns. (16)
27. Jesus Christ will return on the Last Day, when the Resurrection and the Last Judgment will take place. (16)
28. The Rapture and the Second Coming will occur together. (16)
29. There will be one Resurrection of all men; the righteous will be raised to everlasting life, and the wicked will be raised to damnation. (16)
30. The primary concern of prophecy is ethical conduct: obedience to God’s commands. (17)
31. The Canon of Scripture was closed in A.D. 70, when the Old Covenant passed away. (18)
32. The Book of Revelation is not to be interpreted “futuristically”; for its first-century readers, its message was contemporary, and the time of its fulfillment was “at hand.” (18)
33. The “Beast” of Revelation was a symbol of both Nero in particular and the Roman Empire in general. (20)
34. The “False Prophet” symbolized the Jewish religious leadership. (20)
35. The “Harlot” symbolized apostate Jerusalem, which had ceased to be the City of God. (21)
36. The “Millennium” is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, which He established at His First Advent.
37. The “First Resurrection” is a Spiritual resurrection: our justification and regeneration in Christ. (22)
38. The “thousand years” of Revelation 20 is symbolic for a vast number of years – most likely many thousands. (22, 24)
39. All Christians are priests in this age; all Christians are now seated in the heavenly places in Christ. (22)
40. The New Creation has already begun: The Bible describes our salvation in Christ, both now and in eternity, as “a new heaven and a new earth.” (23)
41. The “New Jerusalem,” the City of God, is the Church, now and forever. (23)
42. The center of the Christian reconstruction of the world is the Church. The essence of Biblical religion, and the source of Christian culture, is the worship of God. (24)
43. The Church’s worship and government are officially recognized in the heavenly Court. When the Church pronounces lawful judgments, they are executed on earth, in history, through God’s providential administration of the world. (24)
44. The Christian goal for the world is the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics, in which every area of life is redeemed and placed under the lordship of Jesus Christ and the rule of God’s law. (24)
45. The Christian standard for ethics in every area – for individuals, families, businesses, and governments – is Biblical law. The Christian cannot be satisfied with “pluralism,” for his calling is to work for the dominion of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom throughout the world. Prosperity for the world will come from Jesus Christ, and from Jesus Christ alone.