O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Debate on 7 February "The Nature of the Genesis 1 Heavens and Earth,"

Upcoming Debate on 7 February 2011
« Thread Started on Jan 24, 2011, 10:03pm »
The debate, "The Nature of the Genesis 1 Heavens and Earth," is scheduled to begin on Monday, February 7, 2011. The debaters are kangaroojack and Jeffrey L. Vaughn, PhD. The judge for the debate is simplyforgiven.

Here is a little more information about each debater:

KangarooJack – Jack graduated from the Moody Bible Institute of Chicago with a diploma in Evangelism. He later earned his Bachelor of Ministry degree from Bethany Bible College with some follow-on education at Chesapeake Theological Seminary of Maryland. He is currently an active member and ordained officer in a Presbyterian (PCA) church. Jack has been a Full Preterist for the past seven years, having come out of a background of Futurism. His journey from Dispensationalist to his Full Preterist convictions took twenty years.

Jeffrey L. Vaughn, Ph.D. – Jeff earned his Ph.D. from the University of California and works in telescope optics. He has spent his life in conservative Restoration Movement churches, first the independent Christian Church and now the Church of Christ. In 1992, Jeff changed his end-time views after reading the book, An Eschatology of Victory by J. Marcellus Kik. Jeff now dedicates his theological study to developing a common and consistent view of creation and prophecy at both ends of the Bible. Jeff is coauthor of the book, Beyond Creation Science(

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The Debates exact location is found HERE


We welcome all visitors and guests.


Two very well stated and clearly presented affimitives have been posted at the debate page. Its underway.


I don't want to sound unkind but maybe Kangaroo  Jack should take a few more weeks to study.

He says "my research for this debate over the past few weeks has led me to a different conclusion about the meaning of the expression "first heaven and earth."


Maybe in another week or two he'll convert to CC .


I'm not very familiar with how written debates work but it seems Jack's first post is mostly a negative and I was under the impression it was to be his "resolve"


I also noticed he stated "I will be negating the Covenant Creationist premise that heaven and earth is Israel."

Jeff says "I affirm the Resolve: The heavens and the earth of Genesis 1:1 is the first heaven and the first earth of Revelation 21:1.'


How could he miss that?


One last thing Allyn could you explain to me what he meant by the following statement.I honestly can't tell if he had it deleted or the judge did on her own and if so why?

"ATTENTION ALL: My resolve which appeared immediately above and is now deleted per my request underwent a change in form when it was posted by the judge. This makes me very unhappy. Therefore, I reproduce it word for word uneditedso you can read it in the form in which I intended it to be read."


Is he saying the judge changed it?

Thanks Allyn


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I told the good folk at BibleWheel that I was not taking sides in this debate and Roo was surprised at that and PM'd me saying such. My position is that I deal with the Scriptures through my own personal study and if my conclusions line up on one side or the other then that is all it amounts to. Having said that I did notice, John, what you are pointing out here. I think that this is a great admission on his part and shows the flexibility he is allowing himself to participate in which, who knows, may bring him to your side. But the important thing is that we study God's word for all the gusto we can. My online motto is to enjoy God's word wherever it takes me in my adventure in faith.


I appreciate the thoughts here and it is a priviledge for me to host the debate at Live By Truth.

A ruling has been made on your concern, John. Take a look at it by clicking on the THIS LINKwhich is a link to the debate section. Dennison is so far doing a bang up job in his judge capicity.

I have posted my rebuttal to KangarooJack's "very well stated and clearly presented affimitive."



Do I see a bit of sarcasm? (BIG SMILE)

I thought the rules of the debate required both parties to submit a rebuttal within the allotted time after the first affirmative?

Am I mistaken?

Not only does this critic not even understand the Covenant Creation view, he can't even follow the rules of the debate and present his first rebuttal on time.

Kangaroo Jack is bouncing along in a pretty tough position now. I'll be curious to see what he has to offer... and when!

Tim Martin
I think Kangaroo Jack lost a lot of people when he posted 2Co 3:7 -11 and then claimed that it was Moses glory that was passing away in the first century!

KJ" There you have it! Paul said that it was the letter of the law and the glory of Moses that was "passing away." This matches up perfectly with the definition of the heaven and earth as the angels (heaven) who directed the law and the mediator Moses (earth) who received it. This is substantiated by the fact that Paul said that when the glory of Moses passes away the people of God are changed "from glory to glory." They are changed from the glory of Moses to the glory of Christ and not from the glory of Adam to the glory of Christ."

Here is the ESV

2Co 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
2Co 3:8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?
2Co 3:9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.
2Co 3:10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it.
2Co 3:11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

I think the ESV makes it pretty clear what glory was passing away " ministry of condemnation"

Here is a short article by Don Preston "From Glory to Glory"

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Checking in on the development of this debate...




This one's going to be a great resource for the future development of Covenant Creation within Covenant Eschatology. Thanks for your diligent work dealing with your opponent, Jeff! Nice work.


Tim Martin


Are you kidding me?


Has the opponent of Covenant Creation up and quit this debate midway through? Sure looks like it to me. Unbelievable.


You know, this is uncanny. I know of 3 formal debates over Covenant Creation in the last few years. In all three debates, the opponent to Covenant Creation quit the debate and did not finish the stated number of responses. Just up and left.



Tim Martin

Tim and Jeff,

I am honored to know you guys. CC is going to shift the discussion in such profound ways that the bedrock of modern exchatological debate will change to try to attack CC. I think it will be perceived as heresy, and the threat it presents to the established church will be vehemently fought against.

I hate to say this, but history proves it to be so. What people cannot understand they attack. When debates are given up (as in this case) it is a sign that the players against CC have met their match and predictably will begin to send personal attacks out.

Be prepared for it to get ugly and personal.


Olivet Discourse Movie

How the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the first century.
Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21
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