Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Im curious what Paul meant by believers being delivered from the law

Rom 7:4-6 

Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by [what] the Law [makes sin] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, [a]in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].

In these verses Paul seems to say that believers were delivered from the Law, but yet we see believers faithfully keeping the law:

Acts 21:20 And upon hearing it, they adored and exalted and praised and thanked God. And they said to [Paul], You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and all of them are enthusiastic upholders of the [Mosaic] Law.

So how could believers be delivered from the law yet enthusiastoc upholders as well?

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Think First Century Audience Relevance.

Israel/Jews were under The Mosaic Law. Jews/Israel had to stay under The Law until all of the Prophecies of Blessings and Curses were fulfilled and then the Fullness of the New Covenant would arrive. The way that they worshiped was Law (Temple)+Jesus (Faith and Grace), until Law was fulfilled (AD70) and then, only Jesus.The book of Hebrews states that as long as The Temple Stood, it (The Temple/Law) HAD Standing (in Full Force). The Gentiles were not/never under the Law of Moses (they were unto 'a law' unto themselves) and Paul told the Judeizers (Christian Jews) that he (Paul) would not force Gentiles to come under 'the Law', because the Law was waxing old and fading away and that they and their Fathers could not keep The Law anyway. The Church at Rome was a mixture of Jews and Gentiles, hence the language of the text. The Jerusalem Church was only Jews and a few new proselytes to the Temple Worship system. It is the 'Jerusalem' Church (full of First Century 'converted' Jews) that were enthusiastic 'upholders ' of The Mosaic Law.

Who, what, where, when, why.  Context, context.

Thanks Bro Les

I agree with you that the Jews kept the Law plus Jesus up till AD70

I agree with you that the gentiles were never under the law and were specifically NOT to come under it.

I agree that the church at Rome was a mixture of Jews and Gentiles and that the verse in Acts speaks primarily of the Jerusalem Jewish church.

Nevertheless, since Gentiles were not under the law, how could Paul say Gentiles were delivered from the law? Does that not mean then, that the people who Paul referred  to as being delivered from the law were Jews?

While Acts 21:20 speaks of Jerusalem Jews, would the correctness or otherwise of being zealous for the law be limited to geographical location? Would it not be equally correct for a Jew to be zealous for the law whether they are in Jerusalem as much as they are in Rome? If Jews in Rome were delivered from the law, then surely those in Jerusalem would be too!

Thus I still seek to understand what being delivered from the law meant for the Jews, since only the Jews could be delivered from the law (at least in my understanding) and this deliverance had to apply uniformly in Rome and Jerusalem.

Thanks

Hello Internet_Troll,

Let us see what David Curtis has to say on these verses that you are looking at and then see what you think. Each 'page' is a sermon of his.

(no, I do not agree with everything that David Curtis writes or says)

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/romans_new/7_1-6.htm

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/acts/21_15-40.htm

Thank Bro Les

I looked at the two sermons but have not been satisfactorily answered.

From my understanding the pastor is saying Rom 7 teaches that Christian Jews had died to the law thus were no longer under obligation to keep it. However I understand him to be saying Christian Jews were however free to keep the law even though they had been delivered from it and died to it.

This seems to have no challenge until we look at Paul's response to the accusation that he taught Jews to forsake Moses. The solution was not to explain that Christian Jews were free not to keep the law, so these Jewish Christians should not be upset even if Paul had taught thus (though luckily he hadn't). This seems to me the correct response if keeping of the law by Jewish Christians was a matter of preference as suggested by pastor Curtis (at least if I understood him correctly). However, this is not what happened! Far from trying to correct the Jewish Christians' passion for the law, the solution was to show that even Paul himself was equally a committed keeper of the law. I clear Paul of any charge of expediency, hypocrisy and not standing for the truth of the gospel.

Thus I remain puzzled why those delivered from the law and had died to it, still passionately kept it. What does being delivered from the law mean, because practically it doesnt seem to have any effect for the Christian Jew.

The Apostle Paul always spoke in the 'form' of HAVE... but not YET. Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee (so he knew The Law very well) and kept all of The Feasts of The Lord. All were still living in what Jesus called 'This Age' (Mosaic Age) and waiting for 'The Age to Come' (Messianic Age, that has No End). Let us look at what the Hebrew writer, writes to Hebrews.

Heb 9:8 - The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Heb 9:9 - Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Heb 9:10 - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Heb 9:11 - But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:12 - Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The 'reformation' (v10) was to be at the time when the Mosaic Tabernacle was no longer standing and the High Priest (Jesus Christ) of The Order of Melchizdek came out of the Perfect Tabernacle. Yes, Jews/Israel were obligated  (by The Law) to keep the whole Law (or absolutely none of it,  which was impossible for them to do) until the time of when Jesus said, "I came not to destroy The Law and The Prophets, but to Fulfill". All, Jews/'Greeks', were still at that time under The Death Cloud.... unbelieving 'Greeks' were worse off as they ('Greeks') were dead as Stones. ("You say that you are sons of Abraham, God can make these 'Stones' Sons of Abraham")

The Law and The Prophets were a call To Death for all of those who were enemies of God, those who were of Israel/Jews. The Gentiles were not 'enemies' of God, they were never 'married' to God and became Harlots, Israel/Jews were married to God and became enemies of God. The Gentiles were always Dead as Stones. But by Faith and God's Grace, even The Stones had a possibility to be given eternal Life. The chance and choice (of Israel/Jews/Gentiles) to be Born again, unto The New Creation at the End of The Mosaic Age. The General Resurrection of The Dead and from The Death came Before the full Coming of The New Covenant Age (and after that time, each in their own order).

The Apostle Paul was right in the middle of that transitional period.

Unchecked Copy BoxHeb 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The Mosaic Covenant was (after The Cross) waxing old and fading away to be fully ended at the Holocaust of AD70. The New Covenant (Betrothal) which began, not 'at The Cross', but at Pentecost and came into it's full maturity when the Mosaic Temple was completely destroyed.
Flesh and blood (by bull and goats) does not inherit The Kingdom of God, The Spirit of each individual does. God is a Spirit, and we, in the flesh are that Kingdom by the Spirit with in each of us. His Will be done, On Earth and in Heaven. Where is 'Heaven'? Where God is.... And God is every where....

Paul was 'accused' of telling Christian Jews that they (Jews) did not have to keep The Law. The Judaizers (Christian Jews/ Messianic Jews) believed and taught Moses + Jesus.... Which was 'correct'  (for Jews) during the transitional period. It was not fully 'correct' for Gentiles/Greeks,  the Mosaic Law was coming to its full end of 'rolling' the Sin Judgment forward. Paul knew the The Age was ending and fought the 'Judaizers' that the Gentiles were no longer obligated to follow Moses, but only Jesus Christ. Israel/Jews were the old Covenant People and they were given the Gospel message first (to the Jew first and then to the Gentile).

Thanks Bro Les

In summary, if I get you correctly, you are saying the Jews were zealous for the law because they were under obligation to keep it until AD70 and that Paul's statement that they had been delivered from and died to the law was not yet a reality.

If that is so, that would mean that Romans 6-8 also speak of things which were not yet realities e.g. that they were no longer under law but grace? that there was no condemnation to those who were in Christ? that they were in the Spirit?????

Something doesnt sound right.

What Jews were 'zealous' for The Law? Not the Sadducees or the Pharisees who controlled the Temple system, they practiced many forms of Idolatry. It was All of the 'Jewish' Apostles that were at Jerusalem Worshiped at The Temple and taught about the Messiah Had Came to take away SIN and not roll it forward year by year and their proselytes.

Do you understand the transitional period of AD30- AD70? Two Covenants were in effect at the same time. https://www.store.bibleprophecy.com/product/4608/  This transitional period was from The Cross to the End of Revelation. The Destruction of The People  (Dan 12:7), The Place (Rev 18:12) and old Covenant (Heb 9:8) are not recorded in the New Testament, but are recorded in The Jewish Wars, by Josephus.

Everyone from the first century backward were under the Death Cloud because of Sin. The Sin was 'man' against God. Jesus covered the Sins of His People with His blood until The Judgments (Blessings and Curses). Israel/Jews killed their Husband (God/Jesus) on The Cross. Sacrificed Him for/because of Their Sins. Now, the Contract of The Old Covenant was engaged (probated) and the terms of that contract were to be carried out when The Judge came (AD70). This is the 'winding down' and fulfilling of the OC. 

At Pentecost and the given of the New Covenant (Contract), this is the Betrothal of The Marriage Covenant (contract) 'to The People'. Only a Remnant said yes during the transitional period and most said no. The Marriage (Fullness of The New Covenant Consummation) Happened when the Harlot, People, Place and Temple/Covenant were gone, destroyed by Gods Arm, the Romans.

Bro Les

What do you understand by being zealous for the law? I understand as being very given to observance of the requirements of the law i.e. sacrifices, ceremonies, feasts, regulations etc. Im not sure if you are saying there is another way to be zealous for the law which is different from keeping the stipulations thereof. Im also not clear what your contrast between the Christians and the Sadducees etc is supposed to show, you will have to unpack it a bit more for me.

I am aware of the transitional period to AD70 which is why I said "...statement that they had been delivered from and died to the law was not yet a reality and "...speak of things which were not yet realities" Of course there may be nuances I am not aware of or completely grasped but the bottomline for is that during the transitional period Christian Jews were still obligated to keep the law. This is why I cannot understand Paul's statements of being delivered or having died to the law IF those expressions mean the obligation to keep the law was removed.

Lets do it like this: How do you understand Paul's statement of being delivered and having died to the law? Does it mean no longer having obligation to keep the law? What were the practical implications of being delivered from the law?

"Zealous for The Law".

This is what David Curtis said in the sermon, 'When did The Law End" http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/galatians/3_23-25.htm 

  The Law had no jurisdiction over any believer after Pentecost. The Jewish believers were free from the Law "through the body of Christ."

During the transition period, Old Testament Judaism was still a veritable religion, and the Jews were still "under the Law," because the old covenant was still in effect. However, Jewish and Gentile Christians were not "under the Law" (old covenant) but under the New Covenant" made in Christ's blood on the cross.

The Mosaic Covenant Law (and the Prophets) was a Contract between God and All Israel. The People do 'this' and God would do 'this'. If the People did not do what was required..... Then God would do 'this'.

I hope that you can see that the Jerusalem Jewish Christians, covered by The Grace of God, were Zealous For The Law (and Prophets).... To BE (The Law and The Prophets) .... To Be Completed. The Blood and bull and goats 'requirement' was over with, as a Condemnation of rolling Their Sins Forward year by year. What they were looking forward to/for Zealously was the Full Completion of the Contract. They were being Redeemed, They were being Resurrected unto Salvation.

I am not 'looking' for The Law of Moses Judgments of Blessings and Curses to be Fulfilled as the first Century Jews were, those Judgments were in The Past. 

We can look at Dave Curtis Sermon "The Law Fulfilled"

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/matthew/som/5_17-18.htm

Thanks as always for the interaction Bro Les.

How is being zealous for the law to be completed different practically from being zealous to keep the requirements of the law?
As I read Acts 21 it seems to be these believers were really keen on ensuring that the law was kept, hence the need for Paul to be involved in the purification. So I would like to know on a practical level and in reference to keeping the requirements of the law, what being zealous for the law means and how that balances on a practical level, with being delivered from the law.

(So far I understand being delivered from the law as meaning no longer bound to keep the requirements of the law.)

 {{{{by Internet_Troll

So far I understand being delivered from the law as meaning no longer bound to keep the requirements of the law.)}}}}}

I fully believe that First Century 'Judah'/(some would say Jews) HAD to Keep The Mosaic Law and All of The Feasts of The Lord, 'as long as The Temple Stood' (((or NONE of IT) Not Gentiles as Gentiles were never 'under The Law).  (Sorry if you miss understood me on that point)  Most Hebrews/Jews did not keep Moses fully and twisted it into some 'other' Law/Covenant of Sin... Sin...Sin. 'A' little keeping of 'what' Mosaic Laws that a first century Judah kept was not good enough. Keep ALL of it or None of it.  Paul kept The Law, Fully. WHY would Paul 'Keep' all of The Mosaic Law? As an example to His People (Hebrews) that none should be lost. The Hebrews knew 'Moses' and the Mosaic Law was the only way to really 'prove' Jesus Christ was The Messiah for 'all' Israel, but 'all Israel' did not repent and Believe in Christ. But Paul knew that by being In Christ, The Death Cloud would not harm him. The Mosaic Law would bring nothing but death to those not in Christ. The Mosaic Law was always about The Flesh... Christ is ultimately about The Spirit. We live in a Terra Firma reality, and that reality will always decay. Those who are in Christ also live in The Spiritual reality that will never decay or fade away. I will say this again. The timeline from The Cross to the Holocaust of AD70 was a transitional period. The Physical Death of The Testator (maker/ The Lord on Mt Sinai/Jesus Christ) of The Covenant of Moses and then The Lawful Probate Period/timeline of The Judge weighing the scales of Judgment to 'see' when The Books are opened, who would receive The Old Covenant  Curses and Death or New Covenant Blessings of Live as The Bride of Christ (AD70) Marriage. That transitional period was a 'happy days' period for those being Zealous for The Law + Jesus Christ....

Unchecked Copy BoxPhl 3:4 - Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Phl 3:5 - Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Phl 3:6 - Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phl 3:7 - But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

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