Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

One of the key differences between Premillennial Preterism and Full Preterism is the timing of the beginning of the Kingdom that the Saints possess which is described in scripture as the Millennium. In the opinion of Full Preterism, the saints begin to possess the Kingdom of God in 30AD. This begins the Millennium, which ends in 70AD with the destruction of Satan. In this article I will focus tightly on the language associated with the moment that the Kingdom is granted to the saints.

Starting with Daniel 7, I'll demonstrate below that the chapter is split into two visions (1-12, and 13-14) with a third section being the interpretation of the first vision (15-28). The first vision and the interpretation below it are associated with the time that the saints possess the Kingdom (beginning of the Millennium of Revelation 20). The second vision describes the Son of Man being seated at the throne with the Ancient of Days (the ascension of Acts 1).

Like Daniel 2 (and I think parallel to it), Daniel 7 starts with a vision of four beasts (or Kings, or kingdoms). The last of the four was terribly violent and destructive. For a detailed identity of the beasts and other characters, see Duncan's article http://premillpreterism.ning.com/forum/topics/how-the-11-rulers-of-....

Daniel 7:9-11 (NKJV)
9 "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; 10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened. 11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

What's important to us here is the role of the saints in all of this. In the first vision, the Ancient of Days sits to judge (v.9). Then, books are opened (v.10). Then, the fourth beast is slain and burned with fire (v.11). In the interpretation below we get some additional information.

Daniel 7:21-22 (NKJV)
21 I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25-27 (NKJV)
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. 26 'But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy it forever. 27 Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'

These verses are unambiguous: The saints possess the kingdom AFTER the fourth beast is destroyed. This is AFTER the saints are given into the hand of the beast for a time, times, and half a time (usually interpreted as being 3 ½ years).

Moreover, if we cross reference this passage with Revelation 20, we see that the saints are given authority to judge and take part in the kingdom at the initiation of the Millennium:

Revelation 20:4-6 (NKJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

This is tremendously problematic for Full Preterism. Full Preterism requires that the saints are given the kingdom at the ascension of Christ in 30AD. In that system, the Millennium then extends forward to 70AD, where it ends with the release of Satan and the Great White Throne Judgment.

I believe that the confusion lies in not correctly differentiating the second vision of Daniel 7 from the first:

Acts 1:9-11 (NKJV)
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

When you realize that “come” in verse 11 can just as legitimately be translated as “arrive”, the angels are making the connection for the Apostles that they are witnessing the departure associated with the arrival in heaven predicted in Daniel 7:13.

Daniel 7:13-14 (NKJV)
13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

A few days later we see Peter declare the following,

Acts 2:32-35 (NKJV)
32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." '

In the second vision, the Son of Man is granted dominion after arriving in heaven on a cloud. There is no mention of a judgment scene or the role of saints in this passage. Peter clearly claims that Christ has already been seated on the right hand of God during his speech on Pentecost.

I don't know anyone who says that the judgment against the fourth beast happened before Pentecost. But, this must be true in order for the Full Preterist paradigm to stand.

Given that the events of Acts 1 are clearly dated in 30AD, I believe that Full Preterists have accidentally failed to differentiate between the two visions of Daniel 7 with the result that the kingdom is handed to the saints at that time as well. This cannot be the case. The saints begin to possess the kingdom after 3 ½ years of persecution by the fourth beast, at the initiation of the Great White Throne Judgment, and after the fourth beast (the Beast of the Sea from Revelation) is destroyed. The first vision of Daniel 7 is the description of the judgment against the fourth beast and the issuing of the kingdom to the saints in 70AD. The second vision is the seating of the Son of Man in 30AD. If you keep these straight, the pieces start to fall into place.

Doug

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Thanks for the kind words Jerel.

In attempting to address the scope of the term "the end", I thought I'd look at all of the uses of that phrase as it's translated into English (I suppose that I might have missed a few that weren't translated as such in the NKJV, but I'm not being graded, right?).  There are 35 passages which use the phrase 38 times in the New Testament.  It seems obvious to me that there is more than one usage of the phrase, I'll comment in more detail at the bottom.

WORDsearch"the end"
NKJV
Mt 10:22
Chapter 10
22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
 
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NKJV
Mt 13:39
Chapter 13
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
 
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NKJV
Mt 13:40
Chapter 13
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
 
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NKJV
Mt 13:49
Chapter 13
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
 
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NKJV
Mt 24:3
Chapter 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
 
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NKJV
Mt 24:6
Chapter 24
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
 
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NKJV
Mt 24:13
Chapter 24
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
 
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NKJV
Mt 24:14
Chapter 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
 
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NKJV
Mt 26:58
Chapter 26
58 But Peter followed Him at a distance to the high priest's courtyard. And he went in and sat with the servants to see the end.
 
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NKJV
Mt 28:20
Chapter 28
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.    
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NKJV
Mk 13:7
Chapter 13
7 But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet.
 
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NKJV
Mk 13:13
Chapter 13
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
 
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NKJV
Lk 21:9
Chapter 21
9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."
   
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NKJV
Jn 13:1
Chapter 13
Chapter 13  1 Now before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.
 
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NKJV
Ac 1:8
Chapter 1
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
 
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NKJV
Ac 21:5
Chapter 21
5 When we had come to the end of those days, we departed and went on our way; and they all accompanied us, with wives and children, till we were out of the city. And we knelt down on the shore and prayed.
 
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NKJV
Ro 6:21
Chapter 6
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
 
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NKJV
Ro 6:22
Chapter 6
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
 
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NKJV
Ro 10:4
Chapter 10
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
 
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NKJV
1Co 1:8
Chapter 1
8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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NKJV
1Co 15:24
Chapter 15
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
 
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NKJV
2Co 1:13
Chapter 1
13 For we are not writing any other things to you than what you read or understand. Now I trust you will understand, even to the end
 
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NKJV
2Co 3:13
Chapter 3
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
 
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NKJV
Heb 3:6
Chapter 3
6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
 
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NKJV
Heb 3:14
Chapter 3
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
 
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NKJV
Heb 6:11
Chapter 6
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,
 
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NKJV
Heb 9:26
Chapter 9
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 
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NKJV
Jas 5:11
Chapter 5
11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord--that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.
 
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NKJV
1Pe 1:9
Chapter 1
9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
 
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NKJV
1Pe 4:7
Chapter 4
7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.
 
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NKJV
1Pe 4:17
Chapter 4
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
 
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NKJV
Rev 1:8
Chapter 1
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
 
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NKJV
Rev 2:26
Chapter 2
26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations--
 
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NKJV
Rev 21:6
Chapter 21
6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
 
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NKJV
Rev 22:13
Chapter 22
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
 
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Obviously, some of the uses above are outside of the scope of eschatology, so don't seem to count in our survey.  But, that might just be the point.  The phrase "the end" is used a numer of different ways in scripture.  In the eschatological passages, the ones that matter most aren't the explicit ones (where "the end of the age" is in question) but the ambiguous ones (where endurance to "the end" is required).  Those uses are ambiguous to me because there are similar passages that use explicit language that would challenge our assumption that "the end" is a general time event as opposed to an individual one.  For instance,

Revelation 2:10 (NKJV)
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

This passage sounds almost exactly like Rev. 2:26,

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations--

so that I'd suggest the individual indurance admonitions should probably include the scope of "the end" of that believer's life in martrydom.  So, when it says something will happen or be true "until the end of the age" I don't have any problem letting that explicit statement stand.  But, when individuals are admonished to hold on until "the end" I think there is some precident that the passage may be encouraging them to maintain their faith until death OR the end of the age.

The question is, what's the implied scope of "the end" in 1st Cor. 15 . . .

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (NKJV)
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

The key to v.24 seems to me to be the progression from the subjugation of all rule, power and authority (an idiom for supernatural evil characters who work in history as Duncan has clearly defined in both of his books) and their end.  Paul is clear that though we say that they've been conquered, we do not see this yet.  That's because at some future date to his writings they will be placed under Christ's feet.  But, that doesn't mean that they are killed.  That comes later, when Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire after the Rev. 20 Gog and Magog war.  Until that time, in our current world, we have Satan bound (or bound until very recently per Duncan's explanation) but other "beasts" (again, supernatural evil characters who influence government and history) still alive per Dan 7:12.  Since "the end" in this passage is defined as "the end" of all supernatural evil I don't think it could have been in 70AD per the Premillennial Preterist position.

Doug W

Doug W,

Thanks for that. I can appreciate what you wrote about "the end" referring to the end of someone's life which happened in the great tribulation and obviously before the end of the age. I can also appreciate your logic (not saying I'm agreeing 100% with it either) in the premillennial position of the millennium and supernatural evil. However, neither of your two recent replies actually answered my question. I think it is an important one, so here is it again:

Duncan,

Doug W said in an earlier post (back in April) that there were three steps to 1 Cor 15. Here is what he said:

(Doug W) "It seems to me that this passage is clear about "the resurrection" (there seems to be one eschatologically climactic sense of the resurrection, though the idea is used in other ways sometimes as well) and its order.

1)  Christ the firstfruits

2)  Believers at the Parousia

3)  The end

You'll notice in v.24 that it isn't until this time that supernatural evil is destroyed.  It has been limited or attenuated up to this point, but it is actually destroyed at "the end" which is a step after the parousia."

(Jerel again) So what I was asking is, if the kingdom being delivered to the father in 1 Cor 15 is the same as Rev 11, and if the kingdom delivery in Rev 11 is at the fall of Jerusalem in AD70, then clearly the delivery of the kingdom in 1 Cor 15 is at AD70 not some future event when all supernatural evil is destroyed. That's all I'm saying. Just wanted some clarification on that or if Doug has changed his mind on that.

Duncan's response was that the delivering up of the kingdom in 1 Cor 15 is the same as the one in Revelation 11. That means to me, Christ's rule over all powers occurred in AD70 and is not a future event. Regardless of how we identify "the end" in 1 Cor 15, the focal point should be the "delivering of the kingdom," for Revelation 11 posits Christ delivering the Kingdom to the Father in AD70. This also coincides with Daniel 2 & 7. So unless we are positing that there is another, future, additional delivering of the kingdom to the father in 1 Cor 15, that "delivery" must be the one that occurred in AD70 per Rev 11:15f, which means that the end of the rule of all supernatural evil was accomplished in AD70. I think if you were to be consistent with your viewpoint, you cannot argue that the "end" in 1 Cor 15 refers to the Gog/Magog event at the end of the millennium, but the beginning of the millennium in AD70 (per pre-millennial preterism).

Your thoughts?

Blessings,

Jerel

Jerel,

Just to summarize my postion.  Yes Daniel 7 shows the end of the rule of all evil but not the end (in terms of ceasing to exist) of all evil.  All four of the beasts lose their authority  at that time (see below), at AD 70 (this authority is given to the saints, vv. 21-27).  It is only the fourth beast that is actually destroyed in the fire at that time, however (which equals the beast of Revelation being thrown into the lake of fire in Rev. 19:20). The first three beasts (the demonic rulers behind Babylon, Medo Persia and Greece, cf. Dan. 10:13, 20-21) are allowed into the post AD 70 kingdom age--minus their authority.  What will happen at the end of the millennium will be the disposal of these defeated beasts--the disposal of satanic evil.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Jesus won all authority at the cross (Matt. 28:18).  That authority was fully applied at AD 70 (Dan. 2:34-35, 44-45; 7:21-27; Rev. 11:15-18; cf. Luke 19:11-27). It will only be at the end of the millennium that evil will be finally disposed of, however (Dan. 7:12; cf. Rev. 20:10). That of course is unacceptable in the full preterist paradigm (but I am not trying to fit Scripture into that paradigm).

Duncan,

Thanks for the reply. A couple of points. First, I personally am not trying to fit scripture into a paradigm. I am always trying to check myself against doing that. Second, I have a couple of hangups thus far:

a) How do we make "a season and a time" in Daniel 7 stretch out to 2,000 years and counting? I can't even see the "season" as relating to the millennium, even in your paradigm, because of how "season" is used in Daniel. I did a search through Daniel for these two Aramaic words ("season" and "time"), and one of the most telling things was how the same root word for season in verse 12 is used three times in verse 25 for "time, times, and half a times" (but should more accurately be translated "season, seasons, and half a season" in English because it isn't the word "time" used in vs 12 it is the word "season"). Also, "time" in verse 12 is actually "set-time" or "appointed time" in technical Aramaic. Vs 12 would literally read, "For a set time and season" with season being the same word as how is it used for each year in the 3 1/2 year siege against Jerusalem.

Without digging much deeper tonight (because it's late and I'm tired), this seems to imply more than anything that the Day of the Lord was really the entirety of the "season, seasons and half a season" and that the 4th beast lost it's life at the beginning of the Parousia (Rev 19) but the rest of the beasts lost their lives at the end of the Day of the Lord (which is not the same as the end of the "presence" which is eternal), at the end of the gathering and trumpet feast and tabernacle feast. I'm open to seeing this "season" ending some time following the immediate fall of Jerusalem, but not open at this time to seeing it stretched out 2000 years.

b) Doesn't the position of taking Daniel 7 to speak of the destruction of only 1 of the 4 beasts contradict Daniel 2 where all four kingdoms are brought to an end when the rock is thrown at the feet (at the coming of Christ)?

c) The idea of evil being done away with at a far away future time table down the road from the time of regathered Israel entering the garden (which was at the end of the age) seems foreign to the theme of the prophets. It seems like a very big deal to say God hasn't yet put away evil in a real and covenantal sense through Jesus Christ, because if that were the primary and ultimate promise of the prophets that would be a bigger and better hope I would think than "just" switching covenants. That seems like a major stretch to me (not because of my paradigm, but of me just trying to reason through what you are proposing). The prophets all uniformly spoke of this day when they would return/be regathered to the garden, which was to happen when Israel was married to the Messiah, which was in AD70 per Rev 19 and Matt. 21-25 (and several passages in Isaiah).

At least that's where I'm at. I want to make your position work, I really do, and I think you really have something there with the millennium reign of the beheaded saints with Christ in the kingdom beginning at the Parousia, but all those other details really bug me right now and prevent me from seeing what you're seeing.

Blessings,

Jerel

Jerel's questions are the quotes below.

a) How do we make "a season and a time" in Daniel 7 stretch out to 2,000 years and counting? I can't even see the "season" as relating to the millennium, even in your paradigm, because of how "season" is used in Daniel. I did a search through Daniel for these two Aramaic words ("season" and "time"), and one of the most telling things was how the same root word for season in verse 12 is used three times in verse 25 for "time, times, and half a times" (but should more accurately be translated "season, seasons, and half a season" in English because it isn't the word "time" used in vs 12 it is the word "season"). Also, "time" in verse 12 is actually "set-time" or "appointed time" in technical Aramaic. Vs 12 would literally read, "For a set time and season" with season being the same word as how is it used for each year in the 3 1/2 year siege against Jerusalem.

Don’t see why you have a problem with that being an extended lenth of time.  The fourth beast is thrown into the fire at the judgment not before it(note also that, just as Russell’s postion predicts, thrones are put in place at the (AD 70) time of the judgment).

9. “I watched till thrones were put in place [cf. Rev. 20:4], and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire;

10. “a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated and the books were opened [cf. Rev. 20:12].

11. “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking: I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

12. “As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.”  

Without digging much deeper tonight (because it's late and I'm tired), this seems to imply more than anything that the Day of the Lord was really the entirety of the "season, seasons and half a season" and that the 4th beast lost it's life at the beginning of the Parousia (Rev 19) but the rest of the beasts lost their lives at the end of the Day of the Lord (which is not the same as the end of the "presence" which is eternal), at the end of the gathering and trumpet feast and tabernacle feast. I'm open to seeing this "season" ending some time following the immediate fall of Jerusalem, but not open at this time to seeing it stretched out 2000 years.

Again I don’t see a problem with this  being an extended period of time.  It would be stranger if it was talking about a 2 or 3 years repreve after the judgment.  In a sense the life of these 3 beasts is extended for a time (the time when Satan is bound) and a season (the short time at the end of the millennium when he is released).  I would not want to press such specifics however and would agree with Baldwin that the repreve is not forever (but that does not point to a short time, however)

"It is a little surprising that the three kingdoms first mentioned still survive [the demise of the fourth]. Two points are clear: (i) whoever the original beasts stood for, their kingdoms continue to have a recognizable identity, and (ii) history has not yet come to an end, despite the intervention of God’s judgment, though a season and a time implies a limited future."

b) Doesn't the position of taking Daniel 7 to speak of the destruction of only 1 of the 4 beasts contradict Daniel 2 where all four kingdoms are brought to an end when the rock is thrown at the feet (at the coming of Christ)?

The four kingdoms being smashed at once is the same as the four beast all losing their authority at once (Dan. 7:12).  Only the fourth beast is destroyed at this time of the judgment, however.

c) The idea of evil being done away with at a far away future time table down the road from the time of regathered Israel entering the garden (which was at the end of the age) seems foreign to the theme of the prophets. It seems like a very big deal to say God hasn't yet put away evil in a real and covenantal sense through Jesus Christ, because if that were the primary and ultimate promise of the prophets that would be a bigger and better hope I would think than "just" switching covenants. That seems like a major stretch to me (not because of my paradigm, but of me just trying to reason through what you are proposing). The prophets all uniformly spoke of this day when they would return/be regathered to the garden, which was to happen when Israel was married to the Messiah, which was in AD70 per Rev 19 and Matt. 21-25 (and several passages in Isaiah).

Not sure exactly what to say about this one except that the New Jerusalem comes to earth as a bride (which is what it is) at the AD 70 marriage of the Lamb and there is still human evil outside the city (Rev. 22:14-14).  Don’t see why it would be so strange to still have satanic evil out there also.  I think it is a plus that my position has an end to evil in the universe.  The full preterist paradigm has it going on into eternity.

 

On the point of the three beasts and the "season and a time", keep in mind that there is indeed an explicit time function associated with the extension of their existence:  Satan is bound for a large block of time and then released for a short block of time.  He, and presumably they, are then destroyed.  This long block/short block lines up exactly with both sets of characters and the only explicit description of those periods is associated with Satan.  But, I agree that we might want to be more careful about how we see "a time", etc., since it might not always mean a year, etc.

Doug W

I don't think they are the same event.

 

DougW

Hey Doug,

Looking at the following:

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 If you say the above is to happen in the future I don't see how you can escape the conclusion that all powers are not subject to Jesus today and that we still await for death to be defeated.  Is that your position?

My position is that all powers have been defeated by Jesus (at AD 70), but they have not yet been disposed of (cf. Daniel 7:12).  When Satan is thrown into the abyss he is clearly defeated, but not yet disposed of.  This is shown in the fact that he is then released for a season and then he is finally disposed of in the lake of fire (where the beast and false prophet, having been defeated at AD 70 are waiting for him Revelation 20:10).  I bring up this last point to highlight that being defeated is not the same thing as being disposed of.

Duncan,

You make a good point.  And, while looking at it more closely I noticed a couple of things that I've never considered before.  Primarily, I'm refering to the meanings of some of the words which might not mean what we assume, and the changes could be significant to how we look at the passage.  To start with, as I mentioned in the other topic, parousia should be presence.  The timing and nature of the presence is critical.  The passage you offered says explicitly that the presence precedes "the end", though it isn't clear on how long this would be the case.  If Curtis is right that the gathering of 1st Thess. 4 happens on the Feast of Trumpets in 70AD (~21 Sept.), and we make the presence (or parousia) that date, then we have to have "the end" happen at least a month after the Romans sacked Jerusalem (and as long as two months depending on which feast we assign to "the end").  I don't think this is very friendly to any of the preterist positions people here tend to pitch.  In other words, if the presence starts with the judgment in 70AD then the end has to happen afterward.  It's cleaner to have the parousia be Christ's presence in his kingdom that began as early as the ascension, and everything that happens afterward as something that happens during the parousia, which is ongoing.  

Which brings up an interesting point about "the end".  The end of what (and end is telos, or consumated goal)?  The passage is primarily about the resurrection.  If Christ's resurrection started his parousia (a distinct possiblity, but likely at least his ascension) then anyone resurrected after him does so during his parousia.  Paul in 1st Thess. 4 is clear that "our gathering to him" begins the promised resurrection of believers, so I'm not saying that the resurrection (the First Resurrection) happens before that.  So, it starts on the Feast of Trumpets in 70AD.  But, if it is ongoing afterward, then are we saying that people are being resurrected after "the end"?  Or, are we saying that the resurrection was a one time thing that doesn't apply to post-70AD believers?  How would you make sense of 1st Thess. 4 without a physical harpazo?  I think the CBV approach might be able to embrace this to a certain extent, but IBD requires an ongoing resurrection (I hope).

 Another interesting point is that "puts an end to all rule and authority and power" is associated with katargese ("puts and end") and doesn't have to mean anything more than "nullify".  So, the passage might just be saying that the authority and power were nullified, not necessarily annihilated, which supports your point.  

And finally, death being destroyed in v.26 agaibn doesn't have to be any stronger than death being nullified.  Of course, death was nullified when Christ was raised, so we are looking for something other than the strictest categorical sense throughout the passage.  Death is nullified for others when people are resurrected.  So Christ nullified death when he was raised, the group dead by the Feast of Trumpets had death nullified in 70AD, and each person who has died since then has had his death nullified in real time.  I don't know if this means that this implies an actual termination where death stops being nullified (and therefore either the end of human history or the end of salvation for humans), or simply that death is nullified for the masses after Christ's enemies are placed under his feet (which we associate with the destruction of Jerusalem that happened a month or so before the resurrection).  If death being nullified is the same as the nullification of the principalities and powers, it happened legally when it happened to Christ, and it is seen in history played out as it happens to believers.  I suppose the point is whether "the end" has to mean an end to the ongoing nullification of death, which would be bad for us in your interpretation.

Just for fun, I tweaked the passage below to use terms optional per the lexicon.  I've also added possible dates associated with the above theory in brackets, and I think they make the passage more coherent.  I'm not saying that it's the correct translation, but it is an legal one:

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (NKJV)
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits [30AD, at His resurrection], afterward those who are Christ's in His presence [9/21/70AD forward].
24 Then comes the goal, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He nullifies all rule and all authority and power [some time post 9/21/70AD, which causes problems for "the end" being part of the Day of the Lord judgment against Jerusalem because that'd already ended].
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet [some time post 9/21/70AD].
26 The last enemy that will be nullified is death [implies that the last resurrection will happen after v.25].

I'll keep looking at this more over the next few days.

Doug

Doug,

I know you are still working through this, but I think there are a couple of problems with your analysis of 1 Cor 15. Here's how I am seeing it (with my corrected edition of the Greek text):

1 Corinthians 15:23-26
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits [AD30, at His resurrection], afterward those who are Christ's in His presence [9/21/70AD forward].
24 Then comes the goal [the last "season" of the protracted Day of the Lord in AD66-70/71], when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father [at the end of the Parousia event per Rev 11], when He nullifies all rule and all authority and power [at the end of the protracted Day of the Lord event].
25 For He must be reigning [beginning in AD30] till He has put all enemies under His feet [at the end of the Day of the Lord event, post 9/21/70AD].
26 The last enemy being nullified is death [implies that death was already being nullified through the ongoing resurrection of Israel during the transition period, through baptism in Christ. The conquering of this death is a full accomplished fact once the new heavens and earth arrive - see Rev 21:4].

Blessings,

Jerel

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