Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

It has been argued by those who insist on a physical ground curse in Genesis 3 (ie, they insist the curse for sin was both physical, AND was physically removed prior to the cross of Christ by means other than His shed blood) that this "cursed ground" was redeemed at the time of Noah. To argue this position, even though we have shown in numerous ways that it contradicts the Old Testament prophets, they use this as a proof text:

Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Those who physicalize the curse of Genesis 3 (which also forces them to physicalize the new heavens and new earth of Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21) will use this statement about "Noah" to "prove" that something must have happened at that time to remove the curse on the ground which was imposed as a result of Adam's sin. They have even stated that to see this as a prophecy of Jesus Christ is to read something into the text that was not intended.

We have shown in numerous discussions the problems with physicalizing the curse of Genesis 3, and we have shown repeatedly that such a view is incompatible with fulfilled redemption. So it is not my purpose to rehearse all of those points here. However, I would like to compare Genesis 5:29 to a similar instance in Old Testament prophecy:

Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

And I wonder if those who say that the prophecy in Genesis 5 could not *just* be referring to Christ, would also say that this prophecy in Ezekiel 34 could not *just* be referring to Christ?

After all, if the same approach is applied to the prophecy of Ezekiel 34 that has been applied to the prophecy of Genesis 5, then Ezekiel 34 must be referring literally to David returning physically from the dead to shepherd people (or I suppose literal sheep) in a physical land.

But we know that Ezekiel 34 is referring to Christ. And only to Christ. And how do we know this? Because there is only One Shepherd who made a covenant of peace, and caused evil beasts to cease out of the land. Just as there is only One Redeemer who comforted His people and gave them rest from their labor upon a cursed ground, and who created a new heavens and new earth where "there is no more curse."

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Tami said "We have shown in numerous discussions the problems with physicalizing the curse of Genesis 3, and we have shown repeatedly that such a view is incompatible with fulfilled redemption. "

Tami, I'm new to all this stuff (to the Creation side of the Preterist argument, not to Preterism)...would you mind pointing me to some of the discussions/blogs you refer to? Personally I believe it was a physical curse and that it was not removed at Noah's Flood.


Tami said "if the same approach is applied to the prophecy of Ezekiel 34 that has been applied to the prophecy of Genesis 5, then Ezekiel 34 must be referring literally to David returning physically from the dead to shepherd people (or I suppose literal sheep) in a physical land."

Hmmmm... physical ... earthly ... we use them interchangeably, but are they really? 1 Cor 15:40.

Patrick
Patrick,
Here are a few she may be referring to.
Considering the "Combo Curse" view of Genesis 3
What *was* the curse removed after Noah's flood?

Considering you hold to IBD i don't think your view would be as inconsistint as others i have seen.

In 1 Cor 15:40 how would define "bodies"?

Thanks Patrick and glad to see your getting well!
John asked “In 1 Cor 15:40 how would define "bodies"?”

Sorry, I kept forgetting to post a reply….

1Cor 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Cor 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Cor 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cor 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cor 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cor 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cor 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
1Cor 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Paul seems to be using Creation as his guideline for what a “body” is.

So

Bodies for Plants
1Cor 15:37 – “wheat or some other”  Gen 1:11, “grass and the herb yielding seed”

Bodies made of Flesh, Terrestrial (Earthly):
1 Cor 15:39 – men, beasts, fish, birds -> Gen 1:20-27 – man, beasts, fish, birds

Bodies made of Glory, Celestial (Heavenly):
1 Cor 15:41 – sun, moon, stars -> Gen 1:16

Paul uses the same phrase in 1 Cor 15:48-49
1Cor 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cor 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The Greek word for celestial in the KJV is the same as heavenly in 1 Cor 15:48-49.

I think Paul saw the Body as something physical, thus the tie to creation, that was similar to a garment. So living things such as beasts were “clothed” in flesh. Heavenly things, such as the sun and moon and stars were clothed in glory (brightness, that is light). Notice the wording in 1 Cor 15:49… we have BORNE (or wear) the image of the earthy (the flesh, the corruptible), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (a body of glory, incorruptible). Compare also 1 Cor 15:53-54, “put on” or enduo – to put on or clothe oneself.

If one argues for a body that is “spiritual” (as opposed to a body that houses the spirit), they must ask did Paul view the sun, moon, and stars as “spiritual”? Or did he see them as parts of the physical creation along with the animals and plants? Furthermore, the “natural body” is the psukikos “body” and the “spiritual body” is the pneumatikos “body.” Is the natural body MADE OF the psuke (soul) or made FOR the psuke? By the same token, is the spiritual body MADE OF the pneuma (spirit) or made FOR the spirit?

Long story short…the body is a physical creation that typically housed or clothed something spiritual (life-soul, spirit). The body (physical ) can by heavenly or earthly, but not spiritual. Heavenly is not the same as spiritual.

See also… http://www.thepreteristpost.com/q-a/1-cor-15---spiritual-vs-heavenly

Patrick
Patrick, the links John posted are good places to start regarding the problems with a physical curse. I also discuss it in this article.

Regarding 1 Cor 15, "earthy" does not refer to physicality in my view. (nor does "natural," "mortal," or "corruptible")

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