O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
This thread is a follow-up to the thread on Historicism. Though I'm not a 7-year Futurist, I do believe that a number of things are yet unfulfilled (have not come to pass yet) chronologically.
I believe that the SPIRITUAL fullness is there, waiting to be expressed in earth, and beat back the darkness in our earthly realm (chronological time/space/matter/energy). Since our souls (mind/will/emotion) are part-brain...our souls can be centered on the earthly that is below, or on the Spiritual which is above. When we are centered on that which is above...we invite it into our realm. God wants a church that is a willing participant in His chronological victory over darkness. So you have Kairos logic (eternal, never-changing ORDER) that does not change relative to time. And you have Chronos logic, which is ENTIRELY conditional on what happens in the sequential realms that are related to time/earth/matter. Two different kinds of logic, operating AT THE SAME TIME, but in totally distinct realms. The Chronos being must be made to serve the Kairos being. However, that does not mean that it automatically does. (For that is the very essence & nature of the sin problem, in the first place.) God's empowering grace comes to us, through Jesus Christ, so that we can participate in the progressive victory over sin and death...personally and culturally. Even (perhaps) scientifically.
So you can have an eternal truth like God's judgement - or the dynamics of the old and the new covenants. ...and you will find that God's judgment (singular) is interacted with many seperate times, chronologically, both before Jesus' birth and after. Same thing with the inherent distinctions in the old covenant. We treat the Old Covenant like an air-tight system, but it wasn't. Sometimes people ate the shewbread out of the temple (so to speak) and it wasn't held against them. Or they went against the sabbath, by rescuing a sheep (or tending the wounded). It is here that we find (all along) that God's heart always prized the hearts of men ABOVE His carefully laid-down law. He already saw Israel through the eyes of redemption - even though the Chronos logic necessary to FULFILL the already-present Kairos-logic hadn't even occurred yet!!!!! In other words, even in the Old Testament, they lived by faith and were accepted ON THAT BASIS! The law was only a physical safeguard, and a spiritual illustration to engender such faith in a wayward people (prone to golden calves and partying).
Is this making sense to anyone else? The chronos being and the kairos being operate simultaneously, but in different ways. And anything IN TIME can interact with the same logical (kairological) truth multiple times - even though it's the same kairological fulfillment/judgment/truth. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He doesn't change, relative to time. WE change. Humans. The Jews were simply the humans that were in a school meant to teach them about Kairological truth. Jesus came physically as the fulfillment of that earthly school - and the necessary event for Kairos logic (behind creation itself) to be completed without snuffing out the material realm.
As my last thread about historicism was wrapping up, I said: "Charismatics believe that Jesus is all-in-all. They believe in what they cannot see (because nobody has "seen" this and can describe it fully). In fact, they appear to have MORE kairological faith, in this regard, than the Preterists who don't believe that people are supernaturally healed like they were before 70ad. How can the FULL be any less [terrestrially powerful] than that which was PARTIAL?????"
This was have one essential question that it took me this long just to build up to.
How can what is Kairologically "FULL" be LESS POWERFUL and LESS INTERACTIVE with the material realm (chronologically) than the state of affairs when things were still only PARTIALLY COMPLETED? How can you have lots of healings, miracles, and the voice of the prophetic (direct conversation with God), the parting of the Red Sea, etc. when things were partial... but then have LESS POWER in the Holy Spirit to affect external chronological/terrestrial change/healing when things are FULL? I would think that the FULL would be MORE powerful to change hearts & minds...and even matter... than the partial.
And when (chronologically) did that which is "in part" pass away? I'm inclined to view the 'in part' vs. 'full' as a maturity issue. And as we grow in GRACE (empowerment) we do get more focused, dedicated, and powerful with the Lord!
It's really a very simple question. Jesus healed people (as did his disciples after he left). Are we to think that we have LESS POWER TODAY operating in the "Full" than they did operating in the "Partial"?
You see why I think the Preterists need to re-define their terms. They refuse to make a distinction between the Chronological and the Kairological fulfillments...in order to limit the scriptures to pre-70ad-box. This limits their openness toward interacting with THE SAME PRINCIPLES of chronos logic and kairos logic that were available to the apostles and the early church. Preterists CLAIM to talk about fullness...but they fail to apply any warnings about EVIL in the New Covenant to themselves. And they fail to lay hold of the POWER that the early church had to overcome many evils, in a physical sense.
People whose faith isn't limited by trying to put a cap on prophetic...are able to joyfully receive visions, and participate in a more dynamic way with God. Because I KNOW of miracles, I HAVE seen and felt them. (As well as attacks, such as God wouldn't do.) And I have also had many prophecies spoken to me that were ... prophetic. Not all of them were about the future. One time, my parents were having a divorce. I had just been told the news. Nobody knew. I was ashamed. I thought maybe it was the right thing to do - because the marriage was a disaster. And one of them was trying to make the divorce sound like it had scriptural support. I went to a prayer gathering, and one of the guys there (who commonly has visions and experiences) prayed for me. In the middle of his prayer he started quoting a scripture over and over "What God has joined together, let no man tear asunder." It was reassuring to me: that God saw, cared, and my hunch about what was right was correct. This guy didn't even remember that he said those things. He didn't notice. I asked him about it, and he didn't even think it was significant. Then I shared with him (reluctantly) what was going on in my life. It felt good to tell someone - because I was scared to share the news with anyone. I thought I had to keep up the family image...despite my parents throwing it in the trash. Now, THAT'S the prophetic at work.
The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit/heart/intent of prophecy. The truly (authentically) prophetic will always draw people closer to God...unless they reject it.
Maybe I should straight-up just ask it:
How can the FULL be any less [terrestrially powerful] than that which was PARTIAL?????"
How can the FULLNESS of the covenant have fewer signs, wonders, miracles, and communications from God...than the partial?
To say that we have a fuller picture now, because it is revealed to our minds...and call that "the fullness"... is to exalt the mind and short-change the Spirit (and other things).
That's really what it ALL comes down to. That the real reason why Preterists are afraid to venture beyond 70ad. They are uncomfortable with the prospect of pre-70ad processes (in the church) continuing past 70ad. Their self-limitation only serves the status quo - and drains moral energy and power away from THE PRECISE EXAMPLE of the early church in Acts.
The church's foundation is the Revelation of WHO Jesus Christ is, as the Son of the Living God. Jesus said that he would build his church on that foundation, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The church began pre-70ad. When was the foundation of this building (the church) switched????? When was Jesus' building plan changed?? I didn't get the memo.
If WE are supposed to BE like the early church in Acts than there are a lot more possibilities open to the church NOW (in fellowship forms, in love, in POWER, in word, in revelation including prophetic revelation that doesn't contradict scripture...after all the NT church had both word and prophets. So did the OT for that matter even while the 'old covenant' stuff was going on over in Jerusalem). Preterists are afraid of some of those possibilities and implications of letting the pre-70ad church practices out of the bag (admitting that we can be that way, today). So they desire to stay in a box, and limit CERTAIN elements of the Acts church to pre-70ad. This isn't courageous. It's fear.
This makes sense, since there is no doctrinal foundation for the Roman Catholic Heirarchy. And it was the Roman Catholics who invented the Preterist LIMITATION of the Acts-form church...in order to safeguard against accusation. To admit that the church pre-70ad is the same as that after 70ad...is to admit that there are the same problems and possibilities POST-70ad, as there are pre-70ad. Only the names change.
The Old Covenant had prophets even while they had the law. And the prophets did not have to be descendents of Aaron. It didn't seem to bother true Israel that they had both law and prophets, operating simultaneously. The same spiritual gifts that came with the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant were present and available during the chronological time of the Old Covenant (albeit harder to teach). Things were accessible by faith THROUGH JESUS CHRIST in the Old Covenant...that couldn't be explained very easily, yet. After Jesus came (visibly), believers could explain these things more easily. In other words, the KAIROS fulfillment was always there, even during the chronological time of the old. The old was merely like a foreskin on top of The Truth. This wineskin was no longer needed when The Truth came, more plainly.
But many times, those who prized Moses and "the law" stoned the prophets. Only after the prophet was dead (and could not change, speak, live, or flow) was it safe to examine and trust what he said...after events had proven the prophet correct, and there was no more danger of a contemporary voice. They repeated this pattern many times.
Yet we have people today, who are UNSETTLED by the idea that the prophetic and miraculous can exist side-by-side with the written word (without contradicting it).
These people seek to limit such things to an 30-70ad window...when there was never any such limitation. THE CHURCH (which operated OUTSIDE OF the Old Covenant) had these gifts in operation. When the Old Covenant foreskin was shed, true Israel was FREE to explain things that they had seen. What was in operation in the Old Covenant (APART from the law), was still in operation in the new.
Your constant misscharecterlization of what Full Preterist believe and teach is so condescending it's probably why few people are interacting with you.
Your making blatant statments without offering any support or sourcing where your getting these ideals.
"why Preterists are afraid to venture beyond 70ad"
What makes you think this? I know of no FP who would agree with you here nor do i know of any that have written such a silly notion.
"When was the foundation of this building (the church) switched????? When was Jesus' building plan changed??"
What FP are you referring to? I didn't get that memo either.This just shows me you haven't taken the time to read FP books or the hundreds of articles and discussion just on this site and have instead listened like a foolish old lady to what others have said or written in a failed attempt to refute what the Bible actually teaches and not what traditions of men have handled down to us.
It seems to me the ones afraid, trapped in a little box and lack courage are those like you who are unwilling to do the study with an open mind and admit that maybe YOUR wrong.
"the Roman Catholics who invented the Preterist LIMITATION of the Acts-form church"
Maybe read what the Bible says and quite listening to fairly tales.Here's another memo you must have missed.
1Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
Mr. Scargy, you think I still need to read up more about what you guys believe. I've seen this tactic used before, by people who don't want to address the issue on the spot. Nevertheless, I have read and continue to read, and learn a little. I haven't learned anything monumentally new, that I hadn't already received from a combination of pentecostalism and partial preterism. But a deeper more analytically precise LEVEL of conversation is available here, and people enjoy discussing things. But the enjoyment is directly proportional to one's patience with nice-sounding analytical dead-ends! Everyone has them...but preterists seem to revel in them endlessly. At first, I found it refreshing and tolerant. But then... I felt the need to introduce a fresh perspective - even if I am a bit obnoxious. If anything, it's just more conversation. After all, preterists do seem to enjoy talking a lot. So do I. If you don't like my concepts: hammer away.
I've learned that people can believe things that I don't see are compatible with scripture or the Spirit of God...and still be good christian brothers. But that's about all I've learned, coming here...that I didn't know before.
I am a little obnoxious and direct. Maybe I need to take a breath. I'm a little offended, as a charismatic, that my beliefs and practices are called un-christian by a bunch of folks who are still debating the plain meanings of scripture because they want the stuff that I'm familiar with to have ceased at 70ad. Maybe that's not the INTENT of the Preterist, but that is a logical outcome. And hence, they are willing to disparage the fastest growing (and probably largest) segment of Christianity alive, today. Maybe you don't agree with me, but at least understand that this is the main contention and cause of my angst. That christian brothers that I would enter into conversation with declare that cessationism is non-debatable at the outset.
I've seen and been a part of many tongues, prophecies, miracles of healing, God-arranged coincidences, demonic attacks, etc. These are a part of my heritage and of the fabric of my being. I know it's real, I've seen too much. And I don't look forward to them going away: I look forward to them building toward completion. They (the supernatural and the gifts) have already been an enormous help to me. Yet...most preterists seem more concerned with analytically closing the deal in 70ad. They don't wish to be open to examining the possiblities for a living faith TODAY. A living faith, similar to the early church - who were not strangers to the miraculous.
I appreciate the information available here. Many times my wording is too bold, or issued as a challenge - because I lose my patience. I can read, and read, and read, and read... and I still am not satisfied. So I like to cut to the chase. I know there is a measure of impoliteness in my approach. I've seen preterists mischaracterize folks from my background on a regular basis (actually, the partial preterists probably do this even more).
I don't think I need to use quotes, in this particular challenge. It's common knowledge that Preterists believe that the miracles, and the prophetic, ceased because 70ad was when THE CHURCH went from the partial to the full revelation of Jesus Christ. That is tantamount to saying that THE FULL is altogether DIFFERENT from the partial, and more limited than the partial. Obviously the partial passes away when it is no longer needed. Why would gifts of healing have passed away, when there is still sickness??? Why would prophecy have passed away, when there are still many people (including me) who don't understand God on the level that they should?
70ad judgment on a physical Jerusalem & Temple belief-system is the Preterist excuse for saying that the gifts ceasing to flow IN THE CHURCH at that point, and that all Bible HAD to be chronologically fulfilled (without exception) at that point. Without any direct biblical wording explaining how this is so.
And somehow THE CHURCH cannot hear from God directly today, as they did when they wrote the inerrant scriptures (such a thing would fit within the gift of prophecy, and we don't have that available to us...since we have all the knowledge available to us that we would need...just by thinking & examining, I suppose).
This was pretty much my last 'objection'. Since I already probed what Preterists believe about the resurrection, and I offered my opinions about historicism (and issued a challenge asking for a PROPER exegesis of the phrase "THE temple OF GOD in 2 Thess 2), the only remaining difference that I have with Preterists that has yet to be discussed thoroughly is the divide between Preterism and the charismatics as a whole.
And I should be more loving, patient, and tolerant... I'm working on that. It's just difficult sometimes, when you speak in tongues, have seen visions, heard prophecies (that were true), and known people who were supernaturally healed (with doctors verification). It's difficult to sit down & have a nice and calm conversation with a person who tells you that all of this didn't happen and couldn't happen. I enjoy myself in these conversations, but I FEEL LIKE SHOUTING: "Wake up!!" There's MORE! There are more possibilities than we have dreamed of.
Love never ends. And love we DO share. I just get passionate, direct, and somewhat disagreeable when I feel like someone is being blockheaded toward a whole block of christians who may have wrong beliefs but UNDOUBTEDLY have shared in the gifts of the Spirit. They are real, and they are available. A proper exegesis would reveal this...not take great effort to deny what I KNOW to be true.
I've noticed that this is an intelligent forum that values direct & precise exegetical evidence. (Or pretends to, so long as it supports the 70ad cessationist premise. But now, I guess the tagline for cessationism is "FULL." Supposedly, a person who is FULL of the Holy Spirit nowadays, would be any less in-touch with the directly prophetic and physically miraculous than they were in the NT.)
Why don't YOU present exegetical proof that miracles & gifts ceased?? This I would be most interested in debating. Bring forward your scriptural quotes.
Why don't you explain how 2 Thess 2 CANNOT refer to the church totally apart from a physical temple?
You asked me if it is possible to be a preterist and continue to believe in the gifts. Why don't you answer? Is there a way that they can? If I am to evaluate preterism from all explanations given to me (so far) in this forum...a preterist cannot accept the gifts in operation, today. Because the gifts are in part...and the full is... somehow less active & powerful & interventionary than the gifts. It's like the building plan was changed (God's people are His building) after only half of the walls were done. Requiring a different kind of stone for the second half of the building, post 70ad.
It is possible to be a PARTIAL preterist, and believe in the gifts of the Spirit. This I have seen in the case of Joel McDurmon...though he still distances himself from 'charismatics' and doesn't really give them any benefit of the doubt (except that he doesn't RULE OUT the gifts). He doesn't consider himself 'charismatic' even though he believes that the gifts are still in operation. (I thought that was the very definition of 'charismatic'...) I don't know how he pulls that off. But at least he doesn't seperate himself from us, completely.
For a preterist, the seperation happened at 70ad... and every charismatic in the world is either crazy or a fool. Despite MUCH evidence to the contrary. You can choose to point to things that are wrong within the VERY LARGE charismatic movement...and I can point to things that go very well with it.
No. Those who speak in tongues, do not understand what they are saying. Their soul and spirit are being allowed to pray in a way that bypasses the language centers of the mind. That doesn't mean that they don't feel and experience what they are praying for - it's just not linguistic. Interpretation (in a New Testament context) is similar to direct prophecy. You aren't consciously interpreting - you are merelly speaking what you are to speak. Since these gifts were in operation (according to the preterist paradigm) for 40 years in the church's history... you surely don't doubt the validity of these processes BACK THEN, do you?
I KNOW by experience. I know that the miraculous, interventionary, and gifts are REAL. And nothing in the Bible contradicts that. Nor have you presented the scriptural evidence that you ask me for. So bring it.
I am NOT accusing anyone who is unfamiliar or uncomfortable with the miraculous (or the gifts) of being "outside of redemption" or "un-saved". I know many charismatics who go in seasons of intense experience & devotion... and then hit dry spells (sometimes of their own accord, sometimes it's God's will). Some things, like tongues, seem to be more in the control of the spirit of the prophet...while other things (like when/how to receive revelation) depends on issues that the prophet may not be in control of. I've known people who used to speak in tongues, but then didn't practice it for long periods of time...and may not even know how to begin (because they 'dried up' a bit...like a sports muscle that atrophies). There is a God-to-individual link, that all christians attest to. The charismatics simply believe that this abiding link is STRONGER and MORE ENCOMPASSING. This also sets them up for more disappointment, when they pray and nothing happens. It takes faith and boldness to examine why, and to continue to pray and push forward.
Faith comes by the word of God. But then what happens when people believe? STUFF HAPPENS. We see that when Jesus and the apostles healed people, faith was directly involved. Now, we know that it was not by their power - but God working. And we know that faith had something to do with it. It is for the sake of building faith that God works! And it is for God's salvation that we believe! (For nobody seeks God at first, or trusts Him completely at first. Because of desperation due to an ailment in their body/soul they reach out for rescue to the One that can rescue.)
I can submit biblical evidence, if you'd like. :)
(For your review and verification, of course.)
Ok. You ask me for some exegesis (which I gave). I will give a little more, and wait for your exegetical reply.
You challenged me on my quote: "I'm inclined to view the 'in part' vs. 'full' as a maturity issue. And as we grow in GRACE (empowerment) we do get more focused, dedicated, and powerful with the Lord!"
It is a maturity issue. It is not a 70ad issue. Now, 70ad was used to help mature the church and judge those who would not convert over. But the central theme of that whole chapter of 1 Cor 13 is love. But not only love...maturity is seen as related to love. Now, God is Love. Anyone with the Spirit of God, has the Spirit of Love in him. Love is pictured as perfect and remaining, and high above all of the gifts that come from Love. The Source is the Fullness. Just as the Source of Light (the Son) is the fullness - rather than the rays that come from it. What is a finger apart from the palm of the hand?
"8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail"
I just noticed, it didn't say 'cease'. It said 'fail.' In other words: the prophets need to be tested and weighed, even if they have been accurate in the past.
"whether there are tongues, they will cease"
There will come a time when you gotta stop talking. Even if it's a spiritual language.
"11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
In other words, perfect knowledge is relational. Partial knowledge is NOT relational and is immature. Don't trust in the gifts. Trust in the Person and Love that is the Source of the gifts. Don't revel in the gifts. Use them for the purpose of building people up toward Love.
"13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
How can The Full/Perfect/Love be any less terrestrially powerful or divinely interactive than the gifts that were in part and CAME FROM that source of fullness? The gifts are given as aids and crutches. To help us heal and progress toward Love. Once love has come in one area, we get built up in another area where we are weak in love. (You ever read the book "The 5 Love Languages"? You can be STRONG in one area and mode of expression...and very weak in others. So we have our brothers to aid us. But we should not always trust in their aid. We need to progress toward The Empowering Source of that aid. We need to mature. Once matured, we have less need of crutches...and we can GIVE AND SHARE what we have, rather than lean on someone else. WE become more interactive in a loving way!
Nowhere is an exact time (or predictor needing fulfillment) given for when the gifts cease...except for when the full comes. If you are fully healed, you don't need to be healed. If you fully know, then you don't need someone to prophecy to you and tell you to 'know'. Obviously this doesn't all happen to everyone at the same time/place. It's a maturity thing. Until we all grow up into the maturity of One Man, our Head, the Source, Jesus Christ.
Full Preterism makes the mistake of assuming that the 70ad judgment was a complete and full expression of love. No - it was judgment, primarily. It was a cutting off of the old system that had become hollow and dead. It was a judgement for rejecting the love of the cross, and failing (deliberately?) to discern the times.
Ok. Your turn. Where's your exegesis in reply?
I can do a "bible search" based on words as well. I guess that's what you want: precise word definitions. Ok. Now I guess I know what "exegete" means.
Your big list is very helpful - but did nothing to refute what I said the verse meant (which may be one of a few meanings). Where there are prophecies (where there are an abundance of prophecies) they will fail (some may fail). But LOVE will never fail. That is the proper overall meaning. Based even on your exegesis of the word "fail". Now...because of this, we do need to test and weigh what is said. That is a proper view, based on this scripture combined with others in the Bible that tell us not to accept a prophecy unless it comes true AND that it must be in alignment with the gospel. That is a proper view, maybe not "an exegesis." Mibad.
I didn't say that the FAILING of prophecy was the testing & weighing of prophecy. I meant that contemporary prophecy can fail (since Paul is speaking of the gift of prophecy, here). Because of that, it needs to be tested and weighed. Do you disagree??
Do I see the transitioning from the Old to the New throughout the NT? Yes. But it's more than what you believe. He had to describe how Jesus was a Jew, but that the Gentiles don't have to follow the rules that the Jews up until Jesus followed. Otherwise, it would have created confusion in the ears of the hearers (both Gentile and Jew). It was PRECISELY Paul's message that got him into trouble, even when he acted as a Jew inside the borders of Israel. They KNEW he was doing it out of freedom and choice, not duty. Paul, when speaking of law versus grace...is also taking a broader view of "law" as well. "Law" doesn't only mean Old Covenant Jewish law. There are other variations of 'law' that is speaking of: such as the law that the Gentiles come by, naturally, in their hearts...that then condemns them if they trespass knowingly against it. Law governs the natural. But Jesus is super-natural. Therefore, to be in Jesus - is to be in grace. The law still applies as a schoolmaster to drive us back toward Christ, should we fail...but it is not an external system any longer.
You got drawn into "these things" because they are true, and you cannot refute them. You just spent 23 lines giving me a proper exegesis on the word 'fail'. Your exegesis did not contradict anything that I said. You are dodging the point. Preterism (Full Preterism) is dead. It has way too many weaknesses and flaws in its logic.
I'd have no problem with Full Preterism coming to my community. But it's still heavily flawed and incomplete. What I have a problem with, is people who refuse to ADVANCE or MATURE when something better is presented to them.
You don't need to have a full system to resort to. If there is anything that a deep study of eschatology should teach you... it's that you take it one question at a time, one step at a time. So if a guy presents one or two valid sentiments that disagree with your system...and you cannot reconcile it with the fundamentals of your system... then you need to give up elements of that framework. The other guy (me) doens't have to have a fully explained framework to resort to. It's called openness... Preterists don't have it, past 70ad. That's why the bulk of their logic is centered around how to explain things in light of 70ad....because they don't want to confess that there are any of the same dynamics AFTER THAT POINT.
I'll continue to read & study, as always - from all angles. I wish the same for you.