O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Response to Frost’s Review of: “The ‘then world’ versus the ‘now heavens and earth’ in 2 Peter 3:6-7: Is Peter saying that ‘world’ equals ‘heavens and earth’?”

This weekend I finished my response to Sam Frost's critique of my original paper titled “The ‘then world’ versus the ‘now heavens and earth’ in 2 Peter 3:6-7: Is Peter saying that ‘world’ equals ‘heavens and earth’?”

The complete article is attached at the bottom of this discussion entry.

May God bless you in your studies.


This paper is a response to Sam Frost’s Review (hereafter, “Frost”) of my initial paper which critiqued his view of “world” and “heavens
and earth” in 2 Peter 3. I appreciate Frost’s willingness to dialogue
with me and his extension of philadelphia to me. As his brother in
Christ by faith, I would expect no less of him regardless of whether we
agreed or disagreed on this matter. Still, it sets an audience at ease
when two men can discuss disagreements without slander, sarcasm, or
misrepresentation. For the most part, this was achieved in Frost’s
response to me.

Views: 41


Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion


Thanks for your careful analysis. I will look forward to how Samuel Frost deals with the biblical issues raised in both of your papers.

For those who are not aware of the wider context of this article, this additional response by Jerel is a continuation of a discussion about 2 Peter 3 and Covenant Creation. Those interested can investigate the entire issue here:


Tim Martin

P.S. Jerel, if you ever plan another pheasant hunting trip and have room for another, let me know! I don't have a dog right now, but I love pheasant hunting. I will drive wherever you are planning to go. We do some bird hunting around here. My fondest memories, however, are traveling to Spearfish, SD with a friend to do extended hunting. What a great place to hunt birds!

Thanks, and you're welcome.

As far as pheasant hunting goes, the hunting hasn't been all that great in Washington. And now that I am moving to California in a week, I'll just be quail hunting since there are no native pheasants in Ca unless they are planted on reserves. So, I'd rather come up there to you with my dogs and hunt in Montana or South Dakota. In fact, if you want to, we can start planning for a fall trip this year.

Tim and Jerel,

You guys both need to come up to Choteau! I have a neighbor/friend that has the only foot backpacking /outfitting license in the Bob Marshall Wilderness. So when hunting season comes around all he does is hunt hunt hunt. He has about 4 dogs but he always goes by himself because no one is available to go pheasant hunting with him. I have a standing invitation, and he told me the more the merrier (he likes to hunt with at least 4 to 6 guys if not more). I guess he has permission to hunt all over the place. I also have two 160 acre plots that are just south east of town that no one hunts on. It is all just CRP land that sits. I am sure there are birds out there during the season. Let me know when you want to come up!


P.S. BTW, Jerel, that is a phenomenal article. The CC case keeps getting stronger and stronger because of people like you.
Thanks Micah, and the invitation looks exciting. I'll stay in touch with you. I don't know yet what my vacation plans are, but I'd sure like to go, either this fall or next fall.

Jerel and Micah,

Choteau would be the place to go. There is more grain production up there, plus more CRP. Around here we have huns too, but I would bet they are around up there. Choteau is 2 1/2 hour's drive from here.

Come on up. You can stay as long as you want. Bring the family if you can. Amy and the kids love the company...

Sounds like a load of fun,


This is a very thorough and well-developed response and I hope it generates a lot of discussion. I think this statement needs highlighting:

"I contend that the old heavens and earth is not equal to the Mosaic covenant, but would have contained it."

Of course I agree, and I find myself wanting to ask, who wouldn't? But what I have noticed repeatedly is that some outspoken opponents of covenant creation use the terms "first or old heavens and earth" and "Mosaic covenant" as if they were synonymous--and even project that onto proponents of covenant creation as if we are saying they are. It's a straw man argument that looks like this: "The Mosaic covenant did not begin in Genesis 1!" AS IF anyone is saying it did.

As you explain so well in your paper, "the first covenant" of Hebrews 8--which we know refers to Sinai, or the Mosaic covenant, because of the constituent elements clearly identified in that context--does *not* mean the "first covenant in existence" (ironically, it is Sam Frost who has proved this) and therefore does not require the equation of the "first heavens and earth" which began in the beginning (Genesis 1:1) with the covenant which began at Sinai.

So how do we determine the meaning of the "first heavens and first earth" when we get to Revelation 21, if "first" can mean "former" as well as "first in existence" (again, as Sam has demonstrated)? We determine it from the context! Just as the constituent elements described in Hebrews undeniably point to Sinai, the constituent elements of the "first heavens and first earth" of Revelation 21 point to Genesis creation! This is of course most clearly seen by the *contrast* between old and new using Genesis creation language.

Thanks again, Jerel. I will have some other comments, but I also hope others will use the opportunity this forum provides to develop a clearer understanding of the issues being debated, as we have shown repeatedly their importance to a consistent preterist hermeneutic.



Olivet Discourse Movie

How the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the first century.
Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21
Riley O'Brien Powell


Isaiah 2:2-4 Used to refute preterism

Started by Steve G. in Eschatology. Last reply by Patricia Watkins Aug 13, 2018. 1 Reply

This Site Active?

Started by Doug in Eschatology. Last reply by Patricia Watkins Jul 29, 2018. 28 Replies

Gen 1 vs Isa 51

Started by Internet_Troll in Eschatology. Last reply by Internet_Troll May 3, 2018. 4 Replies

The sin of the Gentiles

Started by Internet_Troll in Questions and Best Answers We Can Give!. Last reply by Brother Les Jan 18, 2018. 3 Replies

Adam as Israel

Started by Internet_Troll in Eschatology. Last reply by Internet_Troll Nov 5, 2017. 9 Replies

Though he dies yet shall he live

Started by Internet_Troll in Questions and Best Answers We Can Give!. Last reply by Internet_Troll Apr 25, 2017. 8 Replies

The parousia and judgment of nations

Started by Internet_Troll in Eschatology. Last reply by Joseph Rehby Jul 6, 2017. 16 Replies

Preterist Networking

Started by Judy Peterson in Prayer Requests. Last reply by Judy Peterson Apr 8, 2018. 21 Replies

The 10 Tribes of Israel

Started by Internet_Troll in Questions and Best Answers We Can Give!. Last reply by Judith Ann Maness Aug 4, 2018. 10 Replies

Online Teaching Elders

Started by Eohn Rhodes in Eschatology. Last reply by Doug Dec 22, 2015. 4 Replies

Who is the abomination of desolation ?

Started by Stairway To Heaven in Eschatology. Last reply by Brother Les Dec 11, 2015. 3 Replies

Divine council

Started by Sharon Q in Eschatology. Last reply by Sharon Q Oct 3, 2015. 5 Replies

Marriage and Divorce Motif Between God and Israel

Started by Andrew Reish in Eschatology. Last reply by Brother Les Jul 5, 2015. 5 Replies


© 2019   Created by Tim Martin.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service