O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Hi everybody, a new member with the same old questions here. I have been aware of preterism for a couple of years now and though I find much of it appealing I however have challenges with primarily 2 issues, one being the resurrection and the other being the end of the old covenant. These may even be the same question. Searching for discussions about these issues has led me here, Im sure it will be beneficial, so just bear with me guy.
How is 1 Cor 15:12-13 " Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised" to be understood
I knew someone long time ago who did just what you do. She also had feast or famine. I understand. But, like I said, I just can't respond to voluminous arguments. You will actually get more traction and response if you keep replies short.
Take care and thread the needle!
Patricia, my sister.
You have an a affixation with terra firma dirt (dead) bodies.... The dirt bodies of The Saints/prophets rising from THE TOMBS. They were still DEAD (Spiritually) as Stones. Jesus raised Lazarus from physical death back to physical life. But.... The Sanhedrin wanted to kill Lazarus, lest 'The People' believe on Jesus Miracles to prove that He is who He says. The Apostles asked Jesus if 'the one whom Jesus Loved' (Lazarus) would physically die before His coming in Judgment. Jesus says that it was of none of their concern. None of Their Spiritual bodies would have went to 'Heaven' to be in the presence of God the Father, all would have went AND stayed in Sheol until the Full fulfillment of The Day of The Lord, on The People, The Place and Law. You can not use 2 Cor. 5:8 and say apart from The Body and be in the 'Presence of The Lord God'..... Context, Context. You know full well that the Death Cloud was still over All of Israel, whether physical alive or physical dead Until The Judgment of AD 70. The Major difference is found in the book of Hebrews where the Hebrew writer is appealing to The Blood alive Hebrews to NOT 'Go Back' to The Law of Death of The Mosaic Cultus. All Hebrews had a choice (Free Will?) of Following Christ or ONLY following Moses (with its many Sects, The Way, being one Sect). Once Physical Death had Happened, it was impossible to change the Hebraic persons mind.... That Spirit was now/then either in Abrahams bosom or across the Great Gulf, Waiting for The Coming Day of Judgment.
The Thread is about 'Resurrection' and the only True General Resurrection happened in 70Ad, after that...each in his own order...
Hi Brother Les,
If this actually IS a fixation with proving the resurrection of "terra firma dirt (dead) bodies", then it is a fixation that Full Preterists share in trying to discount it. I simply try to include it in the entire salvation package deal that is described in scripture, that's all.
And even if the Sanhedrin were trying to kill Lazarus again - just because they desired this outcome doesn't mean it was a possibility that could actually happen.
And those raised in the "First Resurrection" (i.e., the Matthew 27 saints) are specifically called "blessed and HOLY" in Rev. 20 - not "DEAD (Spiritually) as Stones".
And the ranked "order" of the Resurrections in Cor. 15:23 was "Christ the First-fruits", and after that, those who belonged to Him who would be resurrected just like Him at his (second) coming in AD 70. This verse says nothing at all about any resurrections to follow that second coming - one way or another. It neither proves NOR disproves a third coming. Neither does it prove NOR disprove the individual resurrections you are affirming. So neither of us can use this verse to prove our position on resurrections following those First and second resurrection events.
I would like to hear your thoughts on what I said HERE
It is nice that you are not a 'Calvinist' in any way. There should be no such thing as 'Calvinist', Armenians, Pre-mil, Post-mil or A-mil Christians. What you stated in your post was very common 'Christian' teachings in the 1960s, 70s, 80s and fell off in the 1990s. The 'Rapture' did not happen 'on time' as modern day churchanity people were reading in the 'newspaper' to 'predict prophecy'. Being of the age of 66, and going to a church that taught this, it is understandable on how hard it would be to 'unlearn' "a" 'truth', that was never really 'true' for the people living in this time and place( 2100 century). What has happened Julia, is that through no large fault of your own, is that you have been taught and taking Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT and TIMELINE. You know what happened then? You have NO TEXT at all. You are not a First Century Israelite or a First Century Roman or Galatian or Ephesian or Corinthian. The Old Testament was written to and for Old Covenant Israel, to..... (wait for it...) Become New Covenant Israel, along with believing Gentiles. This transitional phase was 'At The Door', 'The Axe is at The Root',... 'We are "About" to become as HE is".... (The Church from the First Century forward is Israel) (Israel from the First Century backward was 'The Church'...)
The New Testament was TO and For the First Century Audience. YOU can not take away 'THEIR' 'End of The Age'.... What was 'the End of The Age'? It was the MOSAIC Age and the Ages (End of The Ages) Before that. The New Covenant Age, "Has No End"..... It was all written down for our learning and admonition, but 'we' (of this century) can not 'take', 'their' End of The Mosaic Age and the Fullness of the Messianic Age. The Book of Hebrews (you and I are not First Century Hebrews) makes fairly clear of the speaking of the Transitional Period. One (old) Covenant Fading away and One (new) Covenant growing and maturing. The Hebrew writer states that as long as The Temple Stood, it had Standing (full force of the Mosaic Law), but once it was destroyed in AD70 (read Josephus), the Fullness of The New Covenant Age was established.
God is a Spirit, Jesus was Manifested to Take away the Sins of The World. 'The World', does not mean every living human would have 'their sins taken away', but only Those Who belong to Christ.
If you have Questions, I hope I can help find the correct context answer.
Hi Julia and glad to see that you have stumbled (probably not accidentally but by the Lord's will) on this site.
Most of us here have been where you are. I know I was! Anyway, if you maintain an open mind like the Bereans (to determine whether these things are so), you will come to see an amazing harmony of the scriptures in that they say what they mean and mean what they say. There are really no "difficult scriptures" although there are still mysteries that we aren't meant to know in this life. Yet, the greatest thing of all is to know that we are ALREADY in God's kingdom. We don't await a future time when all will be well and perfect. It is already here.
But you will say "Wait, why is the world so messed up"? Turn to the last chapter of Revelation and see what is "outside the gates"! I think you will see that it has never been God's plan to melt the world and start over. He is transforming this world into His kingdom and authority. Time means nothing to Him, and since it took a long time to get to this stage and in this evil mess, it will take a long time to get out of it also. But what is that to God? In the meantime, the gospel is being preached and people are entering it daily. From God's perspective, that is just as it should be and is according to His long term plan.
Your words betray you in your posts. Your first post is nothing like your second/third. You are a funny girl/guy (?) . You are now writing as a 'Messianic Jew' and not as a Pre-Millennial Dispensationalist. Torah and the Talmud do not apply and are of the Covenant of Death. You are dead because of your Sins. Keep up your rituals of death of your father, whom was thrown out of the Heavens and was Destroyed at the End of The Mosaic Age (AD70). The book of Hebrews (written to First Century Hebrews), says that Jesus, God, came once to take away the Sins of The World (the World is those who only follow Jesus Christ) and a Second Time ('Second Coming') to Those Whole Eagerly A wait Him. This 'Second Coming' (The Old Testament/New Testament only speaks of one smooth 'Coming' at the time to the Transition) is For Judgment (Blessings and Curses) on The People and The Place and The Law, which was done in The First Century. You are not Fully in the New Covenant and are Dead. There are No Ten Commandments, There are no Feasts of The Lord. NOT, Destroyed, but Fulfilled. Heaven and Earth have Passed away and a New Heaven and Earth and a New Jerusalem (New Mountain of Peace) has Come Down to Be with His People
The Apostle Paul told King Agrippa that He preaches Nothing But "THE HOPE" of The Fathers and 'the Torah Jews' wish to kill him for that. "The Hope", of The Fathers, came to pass 2,000 years ago (and you missed it because you are of your father, the devil). Redemption From The Death, Salvation From The Death, and Resurrection From The Death, WAS, The Hope of The Fathers. And when The Covenant of The Death was Fully waxed old and Faded Away, The Promises that were Given to Abraham and His Seed, which is (and Only) Jesus Christ and those who are of The Body of Jesus Christ. Those of The Body of Jesus Christ Have NO SIN and can not commit SINs. You, Julia, (him/her/it) are Dead in your Sins and are rejected and banished forever for your false beliefs and teachings. May, God The Father and God The Son and God the Holy Spirit, revel for all to see your Death Cult of Sacrifice and Murder. There is no Life in you and your kind, only Death and Destruction. My God the Creator of All Things, show The Whole world your Death Cult for what it is.
Julia.... your troll group are Death to the Creator, just as Death as those who control the Temple Cultus system of the first century. Play your game, but as of now and 'at the Time of The End', you are still Dead.
Julia, 'if' you are in Jesus Christ, you ARE appointed Righteous. Not earned, but given by Faith And Grace by the Father/Son/ and Holy Spirit. Your 'debts' you have been Forgiven, to Never come to mind again. There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither Male or Female, only those in Christ and those Out Side The Camp. I know 'Scripture' very 'well', it is you that does not seem to know that the Redemptive Work has already been done... it is Finished. The Cultus of Death is no longer within The Camp, but it is and will forever be for and to those outside The Camp.
'Julia', have you read Josephus?
You wish to 'quote' from the non revelant 'Complete Jewish Bible'???? Go back and reread my first post from today...
Are you a first century Roman? I think not. Think Audience Relevance to those people at that time and at that place. You are 'looking' for 'something' that does not pertain to you. The past is past. you are stuck in the past and reading someone else's mail and 'you' (seem) to want to be those people, but 'pulling' those letters into 2019. It does not work that way Scripturally or in reality.
Julia, Do not take 2 Timothy out of Context... The 'All Scripture', points to the Old Testament Scripture... The LETTERS, of the New Testament were written at The End of The Age of/and pointing to The Ages of the Old Testament.
If you lived in the First Century, (which you do not) The Apostle Paul would label you as a 'Judaizer'. You have the scales on your eyes (still) that the Apostle Paul had. Paul had a paradigm shift in his thinking, and you should to.
You seem to want to live in the Past of Moses and not in the 'Today' of Jesus The Messiah. Audience Relevance...
I am sure that you have heard the term...'Judeo/Christian ethic"....
There is not such thing....
There is a Judeo ethic
and there is a Christian ethic.
they are opposite of each other. <The Law of Moses...... The Law of Christ>>>>>
the Apostle Paul made that very clear.