Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Hi everybody, a new member with the same old questions here. I have been aware of preterism for a couple of years now and though I find much of it appealing I however have challenges with primarily 2 issues, one being the resurrection and the other being the end of the old covenant. These may even be the same question. Searching for discussions about these issues has led me here, Im sure it will be beneficial, so just bear with me guy.

 

How is 1 Cor 15:12-13 " Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised" to be understood 

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Yes, I see and understand what you mean.

How is it to be understood? Well, consider that in order for Christ's promise to be fulfilled that "I will never leave you or forsake you", which itself is taken from an Old Testament promise in Deut. 31:6, and repeated prophetically in Heb. 13:5-6, Jesus had to be with His disciples until the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Jesus said that unless He left, the HS could not come.

Basically, the HS is God within us. Jesus was with us, but not IN us. Pentecost was the point at which God could be with us, physically and spiritually, at all times. That could not happen if Jesus stayed on earth in the flesh. He HAD to go, so that HS could come, so that the Kingdom could be grown.

But of course, in order for Jesus to come, He had to have a body. That physical body that came from the grave was the promise from Deut that God would never leave us.  The Kingdom of God is not visible, just as Jesus is not visible on earth now. 

So, just know that the body Jesus came up out of the grave served a purpose. The purpose was to be with us (the early church) until HS came. Once that was done, there was no further need for Jesus to physically be on earth.

Thinking that He came in bodily form so that we could see the example of how we would be resurrected is a false assumption. Knowing the purpose of Jesus' bodily appearance clears up this question.

Hie Doug

Jesus had to be with His disciples until the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.

Not too sure what you mean by that cause Jesus left 10 or so days before Pentecost.

So, just know that the body Jesus came up out of the grave served a purpose. The purpose was to be with us (the early church) until HS came. Once that was done, there was no further need for Jesus to physically be on earth.

I have heard a number of purported reasons why Jesus rose with a physical body (including that it was the only way the disciples would know that sin-death had been defeated) but which scriptures inform us of this purpose which you are implying?

Knowing the purpose of Jesus' bodily appearance clears up this question.

Please supply scriptures which teach us this purpose.

Thinking that He came in bodily form so that we could see the example of how we would be resurrected is a false assumption

This is an interesting point for me, one I have not seen eye to eye with the majority on this platform but perhaps this time we can look at this point more closely but most importantly using scripture.

Jesus was the first to "rise from the dead" (whatever that is) and the rest of the believers were to also rise from the dead (whatever that is).

Do you agree with this?

If that is so, does that not imply that believers experience the same resurrection as Jesus (whatever that is)? 1 Cor 15:20,23; 1 Thes 4:14; Phil 3:21; 1 John 3:2

Let's first agree on this assumption before we even get to what it means that Jesus "rose from the dead" and that believers were to "rise from the dead".

Resurrection.......

One of the best expositions of this subject can be found as a Podcast by Ward Fenley at: http://www.newcreationministries.tv
Ward gives an enthusiastic overview of 'The Fools Question'. I think there's a link at the top of the page to the site. Also on You Tube.
I think you'll really enjoy it. I did.
Stephen

Thanks, will check it out.

Monday, 09 January 2017 20:55 Mike Sullivan

Boyardee,

You might want to read this article.

Hope you are well. 

John

John,

Is this the same Mike who we was hoping would help us with Romans 11?

If it is, hope you will be able to contact him for me/us.

Thanks John,

Great to hear from you, Im keeping well.

Wwill check it out as well.

Thanks Stephen and John for the references.

 

Usually I ask questions about where Im not clear, but for a change I will state what I acknowledged (i.e. well-presented and impressive points though which did not convince me).

 

The parallels and analogy of faith with Matthew 24 demonstrates a first century generation fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15

 

As most of the NT is concerned with AD70, it is easy to make 1 Cor 15 fit into the first century fulfilment. Not only is this strengthened by the parallels with Mat 24 and 1 Thes 4 which are undoubtedly about AD70 but the use of “we shall not all sleep” is a very potent observation for a first century fulfilment.

 

Paul’s use of familiar corporate body words and phrases within the Corinthian letters and within his other Epistles

 

It is a reasonable assumption that Paul was consistent with his use of terms and it is easier to understand “soulish body” within a corporate context than an individual sense.

 

Paul’s appeal to Hosea 13 and Isaiah 25

 

The OT quotations fit in nicely with a corporate resurrection in view and like Sam Frost showed the corporate resurrection view feeds nicely into 1 Cor 16 i.e. the collection for the Jews. Further it ties in with Rev 21 which was fulfilled in AD70 and becomes even more powerful when considering that “all things written” were to be fulfilled as per Luke 21:22

 

There would be no victory over “the death” until victory over the Mosaic OC “the law” was reached.

 

The need to deal with the law to allow for resurrection and the timing of the passing away of the law are nicely explained in the full preterist interpretation.

Patrica

Hie and hop you are well, my fellow partial futurist.

I have been thinking about 1 Cor 15:47 and am troubled by it. Some how I feel this is like the high point of discussion of resurrection and like a summary of the whole difference between the pre and post resurrection.

What do you understand as being earthy or being heavenly?

Do these things primarily have to do with the physical body or its something else? Consider:

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

It seems to me that the primary focus of being earthy or heavenly is not at all about the make up of the physical body. IF that is so does that not also mean that the primary essence of resurrection is also not about the physical body?

Whats your thoughts? It seems I am ever leaning toward the full preterism heresy :)

Hello IT,

That's an interesting thought. I think you are on the right track. If Jesus, who was in a physical body, said that He was not of this world, and we are supposed to be in His image, then should we not also be "not of this world?"

Hi Internet Troll,

Doing good today - just finished a successful dryer repair on my own, so I'm rewarding myself with some time for an online comment before I start recovering a set of outdoor furniture cushions.

Considering the John 8:23 verse you and Doug are highlighting - Jesus not only said that He Himself was not "OF this world", He also said the same thing of His disciples in His prayer, the night of the Last Supper (John 17:14, 16)  "I have given them (the disciples) thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world...They are not of the world even as I am not of the world."  

This text does not cover an attempt to contrast a physical, tangible body form in the resurrection versus one that is not.  This subject of "IN the world, but not OF the world" relates to the topic of how the nature of God's adopted children is equipped to think and act differently than those who are not God's adopted children.  Inclinations and desires are channeled in different directions, with the fruit of the Spirit acting as evidence.  Christ did not ask God to take His disciples OUT of the world, but He did request God to protect them while they were IN the world, even though they were not OF the world.

However, the I Cor. 15:47 text you are working over DOES relate to the theme of the type of body a resurrected saint assumes.  I always thought that Paul's analogy of a seed in this context was the perfect illustration of the resurrection change.

Like many another kid, when I was in 4th grade, we were given a science project with the assignment of drawing and describing the growth of a batch of bean seeds.  We got together a batch of these big glass peanut butter jars, lined them with paper towels, and filled them with damp potting soil.  Then the bean seeds were tucked in front of the paper towel layer where we could see them, and the waiting game began.  

It was fascinating to watch the bean seed swell in size, then split open with a tiny finger of a root that broke out of the eye of the seed and groped its way instinctively toward the bottom of the jar - the beginning of an intricate root system.  Then, in between those swollen bean halves, the first sign of a looped stem unfolded a set of leaves, and bent itself upward to the top of the jar - the two bean halves still attached to the stem.  Above ground by now, these seed halves turned into a vivid green instead of white.  It was a race to see which student's bean plants grew the fastest and the tallest with the sturdiest root system, which was clearly visible through the walls of the jar.

Somehow, between planting time and full growth, the original substance of the bean seed became subsumed into the healthy plant and disappeared from view.  Yet in reality, the seed body was still there in the cells that composed the living plant.

This human body form that my spirit and the Holy Spirit currently share as a habitation will one day in the resurrection be raised by the power of that same Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11).  God does not discard what He has accepted a blood price for.  The form and features my resurrected body will possess will be composed of the original substance made immortal in imitation of Christ's resurrected flesh-and-bones form (but not blood).  Like the bean plant, the "seed" itself and its "husk" which made up my corruptible form will be subsumed into something living that is, at the same time, both like and unlike the original form. 

Similar to a living bean plant changing appearance as it grows, the Son of Man's glorified resurrected body was also able to assume different forms (morphe), as was evident on the road to Emmaus (Mark 16:12).  This trait of a body that can change forms will also be a feature of our own individual resurrected bodies, since we are "joint heirs" with Christ (Rom 8:17). 

Christ did not discard His glorified, resurrected body at His ascension.  Scripture tells us that the resurrected, glorified Christ "passed through the heavens" (Heb. 4:14), to be seated on high as our interceding high priest.  Christ "ever liveth to make intercession" for us (Heb. 7:25), "because He continueth ever" (Heb. 7:24 in an "unchangeable priesthood" - a priesthood given to Christ when He first ascended that resurrection morning, and then returned to earth for 40 days more before His ascension from the Mount of Olives.

Of necessity, an intercessor must be of the same type as those he represents.  Christ must still have that glorified, resurrected human body in order to represent the saints in the forms we currently possess.

This "heavenly" form that Christ currently retains as our high priest in heaven will be the "heavenly" type of form we too will possess at the next bodily resurrection.  We already have the "earthy" form composed of corruptible flesh that will return to the dust, but God will take that very same dust and raise it in an immortal form that will never perish - not one hair of it (Luke 21:18).

The Interlinear version of the I Cor. 15:47 verse you started with, Internet Troll, seems to nail down the sense better.  "The first man out of earth, made of dust; the second man, the Lord out of heaven." (Or in other words, made from heaven's resources, is what it sounds like, instead of being made from the natural seed of a male passed down by Adam.)  

Paul is dealing with material substances here.  Just as we currently possess the very image of Adam's body, constructed out of dust, (earthy), we also in the resurrection will bear the very same image of Jesus' glorified body that He was raised with, and STILL RETAINS TODAY in heaven.  An "image" is an essential form, made of a substance that can perceived with the senses.  God will not only restore life to the dust our bodies are made of, but He will do even better than that; He will endow it with immortality in the resurrection, just like the body of His Son.  

It won't just be a case of "Eden" restored - it will be Eden taken to new heights exponentially.

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