O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Hi everybody, a new member with the same old questions here. I have been aware of preterism for a couple of years now and though I find much of it appealing I however have challenges with primarily 2 issues, one being the resurrection and the other being the end of the old covenant. These may even be the same question. Searching for discussions about these issues has led me here, Im sure it will be beneficial, so just bear with me guy.
How is 1 Cor 15:12-13 " Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised" to be understood
Hi IT Guy,
Sure, I totally get the whole different worldview communication problem. Hey, I live with it every day, since my husband is in a completely different track on these things, and we might as well be speaking different languages with each other.
The reason why I am stressing the Feast of Tabernacles in this Zechariah 14 text is because God stresses it. He mentions the Feast of Tabernacles no less than three times in this one brief section. A 3 X mention of something in scripture is usually a Hebrew writing tactic of confirming an absolute certainty of a truth, or of something happening.
Your curve-ball question? The resurrections were to be arranged in "order" or sequence, as I Cor. 15:23 lays it out. "But each in his own rank" (tagmati - a series in orderly progression). "Christ the First-fruits, then those of Christ at His coming." Eventually through this orderly progression of resurrections, "...in Christ shall all be made alive". If you and I are in Christ, IT Guy, then we too will share in that "ALL" who will have our particular turn of this promised resurrection being eventually fulfilled for us as well. It's such a certain outcome that God calls it as though it were done already.
Those who were bodily raised and then "raptured" in AD 70 have already received their inheritance; the same kind of inheritance that we can expect for ourselves as the next in the series of 3 resurrections. It's just a type of "birth order" going on. Christ, the "First-begotten" One, then those who were "in Christ" at His second coming in AD 70. Next, those who are "in Christ" at His third coming. So yes, those of the AD 70 resurrection will witness the final gathering in God's presence of ALL the rest of God's children in the 3rd and final "harvest" feast celebration.
The Isaiah 66:22 verse that you bring up is yet another text similar to Zechariah 14:16-19. It also relates to post-AD 70 conditions. If we as the "One New Man" (composed of "all flesh" - with Jew and Gentile distinctions removed) truly are the real "Israel of God", then why wouldn't God use Jewish symbolic language of the "new moons" and "sabbaths" to show that we are the true "Israel of God" under the New Covenant? Are you sure that is stretching anything?
In your response to my curving question you did not explicitly state whether those AD70 saints will ever experience the anti type of the FOT. If the answer is yes, then for me the 3 fold resurrection pattern is flawed. If the answer is no, then that is why I said your understanding tampers with the FOT as being an shadow in my view and this unacceptable.
Im not sure what you are saying regarding the sabbath and new moons per Isa 66 but any teaching that seeks a future fulfillment of sabbaths and new moons is off the mark in my understanding but please shed more light.
Hi IT Guy,
The saints resurrected in AD 70 experienced the PENTECOST-based resurrection - not the one destined for the time of year in our future when the Feast of Tabernacles would have been celebrated under the OC. We arrive at the day of Pentecost for that AD 70 resurrection because of that curious 1,335th day predicted for Daniel to share in this resurrection by resting in the grave and then "standing in his lot" at the very end of those 1,335 days. I did a study on this particular 1,335th day on another website, if you or anyone needs those details presented here. They pinpoint that very 1,335th day of Pentecost AD 70 as the occasion of Christ's second coming and a resurrection / rapture for all the saints who had died up until that point of time.
As for the Isaiah 66:22-23 passage about the continuous post-AD 70 worship "from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another" in the NHNE, this is not in contradiction to the fact that the written prophesies for the days of vengeance were ALL FULFILLED against OC Israel.
Why does God continue to call us by the title of the New Jerusalem and the Israel of God in this NC Age? Is it not because there are ongoing ultimate spiritual realities taken from the OC types that we are continually representing? Isn't Jesus still called our Passover Lamb, even though His actual sacrifice has long been accomplished? Are we not as saints still called priests unto God? Isn't Jesus in His glorified, resurrected human body still acting as our high priest? The language of the OC is still used, to reflect back on the OC types.
It's the same thing with the Zech. 14 Feast of Tabernacles and the continual worship of Is. 66:22-23 from "new moon to new moon", and "sabbath to sabbath".
You know, this very same language of worship connected with the new moons and sabbaths was used before for the post-exilic Israelites in Zerubbabel's rebuilt temple in Ezekiel 46:3. I believe this language was used to point exactly to where and when Jesus would bodily return in AD 70. Along with the "prince" (the high priest) who entered by the east gate of the temple's inner court, "...Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the Lord in the sabbaths and in the new moons." (It sounds as if Is. 66:23 is a post-AD 70 repetition of this same OC symbolism.)
Ezekiel predicted pre-AD 70 worship at this east gate - which only the "prince" of the people (the high priest) could enter and leave by on these special occasions of the new moons and sabbaths. The importance given to this eastern gate, and the group worship of the Lord directed towards that location on the new moons and the sabbaths after the post-exilic return shows me that Christ Jesus our high priest was going to return on the Mount of Olives on the east side of Jerusalem's temple, gather all the saints through that eastern gate portal, and "receive them unto Himself" (John 14:3). It's the very picture given to us in the Lazarus and rich man parable, with the "great gulf fixed" between them - which was the Kidron Valley between the Mount of Olives and those Jews trapped inside the city, experiencing Jerusalem's "second death / Lake of Fire" in AD 70.
Because Christ's second coming and that resurrection was timed to occur on Pentecost day in AD 70 (a festival whose time was based on when the new moon had appeared for Passover), the repeated mention of these new moons and sabbaths linked with post-AD 70 worship tells me that we can still use these as save-the-date indicators of Christ's next return for a Feast-of-Tabernacles-timed resurrection. This has nothing to do with re-establishing ceremonial Mosaic law, anymore than still calling Christ the "Passover Lamb" means that He will be sacrificed again.
There is precedent in scripture for MULTIPLE fulfillments of certain prophecies. "Out of Egypt have I called my son" is one example. So is "Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me" - fulfilled once by Isaiah and his children, and again by Jesus as the resurrected Savior. "They shall look on Him whom they have pierced" is another that was fulfilled twice. And I'm sure others can think of additional examples. So multiple fulfillments of resurrection prophecies cannot be ruled out.
I read your post and laughed my head off. You say... 'Remember this and this...' You say ' Multiple Fulfillments'...
God said that 'you' will NOT do this and this and this... nor will 'they' come to MIND.
Scripture says that the 'Types and Shadows' point to the 'Anti-types and The Real..... This means that when 'The Real' has come.... there are No More 'Types'....
Out of Egypt/Sodom/Gomorrah/Babylon/Jerusalem.... I call my SONs unto the New Heaven and New Earth and New Jerusalem.
... First 'Coming'.... Second 'Coming'.... 'Next Coming'???? God/Son/Holy Spirit are Spirits.... ie.... 'They' never 'Left' (those that belong to them)....
Hi Brother Les,
Glad to afford you a source of humor for your day, for whatever reason. Laughter is good for your health; you'll live longer.
Your quote: "God said that 'you' will NOT do this and this and this...nor will 'they' come to MIND."
My answer: Audience relevance. That prophecy in Jer. 3:16 was originally presented to post-exilic Israel in the days when they would return to the land of Israel and be "multiplied and increased in the land." In THOSE days of being multiplied, the ark itself is specifically mentioned, which had been lost (or hidden, as some testify). It would not be "remembered" or "visited", since it wasn't in the temple's Holy of Holies anymore from the time of the Babylonian exile forward. Even then, God was making way for His Son to come to a temple with no rival of a physical ark and its mercy-seat around to compete with Him.
Very true, "...there are No More 'Types' ", as you say. No more types being created, but that doesn't mean we cease to read about those types and consider how God applies them in recurring patterns throughout the Ages, as He has done so often before. We may be prone to think of God doing His work in linear fashion on a timeline, but truth be told, the patterns scripture gives us are cyclical in nature, with ever-expanding implications - sort of like the coils of a spring that get increasingly wider in scope, the further we get from the beginning of it.
Very true, as you say, "...I call my Sons unto the New Heaven and New Earth and New Jerusalem." But remember, the gates of that New Jerusalem are never shut. Since AD 70, God is CONTINUALLY through these Ages calling men and women to "come out of her, my people" into the New Jerusalem through her open gates. The New Jerusalem walls are called "salvation" and her gates "Praise", as Isaiah 60:18 described them long ago.
NOT EXACTLY TRUE, as you say, "God/Son/Holy Spirit are Spirits...i.e...'They' never 'Left'... Well, JESUS in His incarnate, incorruptibly-resurrected body DID LEAVE this planet, as He said He would do in John 16:7. His Spirit was left behind to indwell every believer, but His physically-resurrected form left the surface of this globe, with the promise of returning bodily to the Mount of Olives to "receive" the disciples unto Himself, so that in the realm where He was going, they could be there also (John 14:3) as resurrected individual saints.
Possibly you believe the same as Don Preston and Michael Miano that Jesus destroyed His own physical form at His ascension to become a spirit-only being after that, but Hebrews strongly refutes that idea. If the glorified Jesus as our high priest presently has no part of a human physical existence, that robs you of a representative human / divine intercessor and a mediator for your sins in heaven. Jesus MUST BE part of both human and divine realms at the same time, or there is no bridge between the two realms for us. That's the whole idea behind His continuing to be our representative - one of us.
In my understanding there is a difference between ongoing fulfillment and an expectation for a future fulfillment. The Sabbath pointed to Christ, Christ came fulfilled it ending the anticipation of another antitype for the sabbath in our future. Now you are implying that ongoing fulfillment is a reenactment of an antitype coming to fulfill the shadow, this is where I disagree.
You have stated that the saints resurrected in AD70 did NOT experience the FOT antitype. Thus for the these saints they will never experience the antitype of the FOT. This is what I have a problem with. When you have an understanding that makes some anti types inapplicable to some saints and where you have an OC shadow not finding fulfillment even by the end of the OC only to wait some distant anti type in the New Covenant. Remember, all of the law had to be fulfilled for it to pass away (I know you read that differently but Im just saying it anyway) shadows were imposed until the consummation, if it (the FOT) is no longer imposed, then it must be fulfilled. How do you keep the FOT yearly?
Multiple fulfillments can only be accepted by the witness of scripture itself, not our own conjuncture.
Hi IT Guy,
Have you noticed that Zechariah 14:20-21 is STILL writing symbolically about an ongoing priest-like activity of "boiling" sacrifices in "pots" in Jerusalem? Again, those OC sacrifices are not literally re-instated, post AD 70. This is describing the ongoing "priesthood of believers" under the NC, all of whom are given direct access to even the most holy things of God. Every one of the ordinary, mundane "pots" in "Jerusalem" are given the same holy status as the bowls that received the blood from the sacrifices at the holy altar in the OC temple. This is using temple terms familiar to Zechariah's Jewish audience of that time, so that they could realize that worship of the Lord AFTER the AD 70 conflict would be purified in a way not realized before then.
You seem to think I'm saying that the resurrected saints of AD 70 will be excluded from experiencing a future FOT anti-type. Not exactly. They will be there to welcome us resurrected NC saints as we also come into our full inheritance of a bodily-resurrected form standing in God's presence along with those who are already there since AD 70's Pentecost Day resurrection. How is that not "experiencing the event" for those AD 70 resurrected saints, if they are there to witness it and to rejoice with us in Christ's presence on that day?
And this is not just my conjecture about a 3rd resurrection. I've brought up several times before how James 5:7 compares Christ's coming to a "husbandman" waiting with long patience for the precious fruit of the earth until the land has experienced BOTH the early rain AND the latter rain. These two rainy seasons are directly tied to the harvest seasons in that region of the globe and the 3 required OC harvest feast celebrations linked with those rainy seasons. If you can't see the connection between bodily resurrections out of the ground being the equivalent of the harvests tied to Israel's two rainy seasons, well, I certainly can't force the point with you, of course.
But I didn't invent the climate patterns in that region of the globe. These weather patterns and agricultural harvest times haven't changed at all since Moses was first given the laws of ceremonial sacrifices connected with these harvest seasons, based on the cycles of those weather patterns in the promised land.
I have been lurking and watching the fine discussion that is going on here. Many good comments from all sides.
But sometimes we can get buried in minutiae like a dog on a bone. IT seems to me that everyone is talking around the real issues. What are they? The big elephant in the room is the question of the new covenant!
I ask that everyone debating here read the article at this link:
After reading it, can there be ANY desire to look forward to some kind of future fulfillment of something found in baffling scriptural references to a FOT? If so, you might as well look forward to some kind of spiritual circumcision, since that is also spoken of in the OT.
I posit that the real problem here is not understanding what the OT scriptures are really saying. I liken it to modern preachers who misinterpret the book of Revelation to see some kind of actual demonic "false prophet" and "beast" who literally makes people write a number in their hand or forehead so that they might buy and sell things. Such literalistic nonsense brings shame on Christianity in the eyes of the world. And I don't blame them!
We MUST read the bible with its overall intent (to bring God, in the person of Jesus Christ, to humanity for the reconciliation of people to God to His glory) and not get bogged down in simplistic and literalistic physical explanations as substitutes for the reality of the new covenant. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, but we have the tools, if we properly dissect what God is saying to us via the lessons learned from the experiences of our forbears in what they practiced each year in OT physical types.
Those things were done for our admonition. We are the beneficiaries of what has been done, and there is nothing more to seek for in physical symbols. There is no more scripture left to be written (as the last chapter of Revelation clearly warns). Therefore, we are left to listen to the Spirit who is speaking to us through those things that are already accomplished.
Your quote: "There is no more scripture left to be written (as the last chapter of Revelation clearly warns)."
Well, I hope you realize that Revelation was not the last book of the canon to be written. John's Revelation was written in late AD 59 to early AD 60, and many of the epistles were written afterward, such as Peter's and Paul's words just prior to their AD 67 martyrdom.
It's possible to prove this chronological order of the NT writings with internal evidence from each of these sources compared (not that what they wrote after Revelation conflicted with John's visions at all, but in actuality just confirmed them.)
Agreed that "we are left to listen to the Spirit who is speaking to us through those things that are already accomplished." If we are differing on how each of us are "listening" to that Spirit, I've no problem with comparing notes with others who are perceiving something different. If we differ on just what composes that full sense of "reconciliation of people to God", (in other words, whether that also includes a future physical resurrection or only a spiritual one which we already have), then thankfully our level of knowledge about the scripture on this topic is not what saves us.