Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Hi everybody, a new member with the same old questions here. I have been aware of preterism for a couple of years now and though I find much of it appealing I however have challenges with primarily 2 issues, one being the resurrection and the other being the end of the old covenant. These may even be the same question. Searching for discussions about these issues has led me here, Im sure it will be beneficial, so just bear with me guy.

 

How is 1 Cor 15:12-13 " Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised" to be understood 

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Joy,

I appreciate you baring your soul. It is refreshing to hear people talk about their innermost thoughts instead (as sometimes happens) they posture and stake out "positions" that really don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Your thoughts are not new to most of us. I think we have all struggled with similar notions, and, as time passed and more study occurred, the truth wins out. 

But each person needs their own space to figure it out, depending on how their past ideas have been ingrained. I learned that it is at least twice as hard to unlearn something as it is to learn it new. But we must go through the unlearning before we can accept new things. And, the more ingrained and the longer we held wrong beliefs, the harder and longer it will take to refashion the truth in our minds and souls.

Yet, I would caution you, me, and everyone else, that love (charity) needs to take preeminence in all our dealings with others who may not know what we know.

You said you might be looking for a church that is more closely aligned with your ideas. I do understand that, but I am afraid you won't find it. Personally, I can't even talk about these things with my wife, let alone another brother in Christ in our church. I might likely be put out for "heresy", even though there is really no threat from preterist views, the PERCEPTION becomes the truth in ignorance.

Instead of worrying about Calvinism or Arminianism, just love the brethren wherever you are. Talk to them if they ask, but in things that don't relate to salvation (and preterism certainly is not a salvational issue), let the Holy Spirit guide you about when and where to speak.

I have come to understand that the chief benefit of understanding preterism is a deeper love for God and how He has knit us all together in the  Truth of Christ, not the truth of preterism. Preterism accentuates how closely and beautifully the old and new testaments are bound together in Christ's fulfillment of all things. Futurism wants to put fulfillment ahead of us, and keeps people stuck in the past. Preterism allows us to go on to the future and lets us accomplish things on earth FAR better than futurism does, because futurism is a form of escapism. It wants God to come down and punish all the sin and vindicate us, and it sort of lets people have pity parties for all their own sufferings. That's why the biggest question asked by people today is "Why did God allow ___________" (fill in the blank) 

The answer for preterists is that the world is actually getting better, and that its not going to all come crashing down. God is in control and always has been. But for futurists, there is no answer except "You just wait till Dad gets home and you'll be sorry"

Anyway, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Keep growing in Jesus. :)

Thank you for your reply! I am hardly even able to sleep or accomplish anything in my home for wanting to study! I do not see full Preterism as being heretical but have read that many seem to think it is. I am sure you are right that I won't find a church that would accept this teaching and perhaps I should heed your warning and keep it mainly to myself and just enjoy the journey of discovery. I find myself wondering if the departed saints are all around us, enjoying this same earth with Christ in a dimension (joined to heaven) we can not see? My mind is so full of wonder at the possibilities. Things that will remain mystery until we join them!
I am interested to know which denomination you do attend? I have a lot to unravel as you said from my old ways of seeing scripture. I am not sure why I have not understood it in a more spiritual realm before....that heaven has come to earth, spiritually, even now. Correct me if I say something wrong that shows I am not fully grasping the reality of this viewpoint. The one thing I can't really wrap my mind around is what happens to this earth if there isn't an end to history? How can it go on forever? Science has proven that this world can not go on for eternity. There must come an end to the earth as we know it? Could there be other revelations that God has sealed up? How about the seven thunders that Jesus told John not to write about? So much to think about!

Joy, as a Full Preterist, I believe that one within the Full Preterist paradigm can not be a Calvinist or an Armen, or a Pre-mil, A-mil or Post-mil anymore. We do not exist in those in those realms. We all have baggage in those paradigms but slowly discard some of that baggage. I grew up in the church of Christ (Armen), and we fully believed that one can be 'saved' and then 'loose' your salvation. Where did 'we' get most of scriptural support for this view point? From the Book of Hebrews. We plainly over looked that the Book of Hebrews was written to first century Hebrews that had came out of the Mosaic Temple cultus and were Betrothed as the Bride of Christ during the transitional period of Ad 30-Ad70. Those Messianic Jews could have lost their Salvation (Redemption, Resurrection from The Death) if 'they' did not persevere into the End of The Age/World (Mosaic Age/World). The Marriage of The Church/The Body/The Assembly was in AD70 and one who is in Christ could never be Divorced from Christ (put out of the camp).

There are a few 'Preterist' church's but they are few and far in between. Pre-mil dispensationalism is dying a fast death in all churches. Time is killing it. The nation that is called Israel in the middleast has shown it's self to not be a nation of God of the OT, but a nation of Khazars. They are a counterfeit.  The 'Rapture' did not happen in 1988 (true dipsy teaching shows that the 'rapture of the church should have happened 7 years before that in 1981) or 1990 or 2000. As time passes, it shows the false teaching of dispensationalism. 

Some 'Preterist' (past fulfillment) verses 'clicked' for you and a lot of scales fell from your eyes. We are not Biblical National Israel (neither are the Khazars in Palestine today), we are Gentiles that have been grafted into the Root of The Tree of Live and we as The Body are Married to King Jesus. When we are reading the OT, we are reading someone else's History. When we are reading the NT we are reading someone else's mail. How do we apply their mail to our lives unto Salvation (Redemption, Resurrection)? We are not 'Hebrews' of the Mosaic Temple Cultus. The 'Temple' (Law and the Prophets) had 'standing' (was in full force for Jews) as long as the Temple stood. Jewish Christians were to keep 'the Law' + Christ until the Temple fell. Read the Book of Hebrews in that kind of light changes so much. 

Just some thoughts.

Blessings

Thank you Brother Les! You have certainly given me lots to think about. I am trying to figure out how soteriology changes in the full preterist paradigm? If you say it does not matter about the Calvinism/Arminianism debate then I have some work to do to figure out why...part of the journey I am thrilled to embark on because that has been one of a few controversies that has given me lots of back and forth debating within myself to come to a conclusion. I am wondering too if the controversy about baptism is altered at all by the full preterist understanding? I have always felt it important as obedience but not essential to salvation, however on another site I visit there are some who argue for it being the means of entrance into the Kingdom and that those who do not get baptized risk losing their salvation due to not being obedient to Christ? Since you come from church of Christ I would bet you have lots of experience with that kind of interpretation? Just wondering if that conflict is put to rest, since perhaps baptism was something commanded for the Christians in the transition only? Thanks for your guidance! Now I am going to go read Hebrews!

Allyn,

You said "the believers resurrection is at the time the person becomes a believer."

If believers resurrect at conversion, what role does AD70 play in this paradigm?

You also said "There was no resurrection of the dead but that of Israel."

If only Israel had resurrection, what of the Corinthians?

Please give more light.

my question about the resurrection is dan 12 the unjust resurrection what does that consist of.......i like when Jesus said he who do not believe in me is condemn already....to that i say if one was not a follower in christ now and then, they did not recieve eternal life in there life time as well as at death.....they were dead man walking destined for death to cease to exist....ps, eccl, proverbs.....but to those in christ they were destined to be with him forever in heaven.....

Hi William,

The question you raise was discussed in the course of this thread. It is a lengthy and some times winding thread, but somewhere you will find what others understand pertaining the resurrection unto condemnation.

Hi William,
Justification by faith in Christ was just as true in the OT as it is in the NT. In the OT however their faith was looking forward to the coming of Christ into this world, while we look back to that event. Therefore the unjustified - in Israel, were those who lacked this faith. Seen most clearly as those who crucified The Lord - the very hope of Israel and reason the dead were to be raised to judge whether they possessed this faith or not. I do not see any resurrection determined for those to whom this hope was not given.

Even as far back as Adam we see he was told of a Deliverer to come, which hope Abel had, but Cain did not since he rejected it. Do you suppose that Cain must still face a judgment for his unbelief tho he was already banished from the people of God for it?

Somehow I doubt it...

MoGrace2u wrote,

 

I do not see any resurrection determined for those to whom this hope was not given.

 

I thought judgment was universal Acts 17:31 and hence extended beyond Israel. Unless you are saying that the hope was also given to those outside the covenant community of the Hebrews, but if that is so, wouldn't that include Cain as well?.

Universal? In what context tho? Would that include those who had witnessed the coming of The Lord in that day and heard His testimony? On the other hand ancient Nineva was going to stand in the judgment with Israel because they believed the word of God when Jonah preached it. Thus they would be testifiers against the unbelief of Israel.

Cain did not believe God and was separated, only to go on and father the rebellious world that brought the flood. For what reason should he stand again? But in Israel at the time of Christ, some were hardened to bring about the cross. And opportunity followed His resurrection for them to hear the gospel and believe. Thus their forward looking faith prior to that event would be confirmed by their belief that Jesus was the risen Christ. Notice in Mat 25, that amongst the sheep and goats were men who said they didn't know Him? And so their faith would be determined by how they subsequently treated those who did. Definitely a 1st century context.

MoGrace2u,

 

When I say the judgment being universal, I mean it including every man (up to that point).

 

Cain would have to stand judgment inasmuch as Abraham would have to stand judgment again, which according to my understanding is to receive the complete reward for his faith, while for Cain it would be to receive the complete judgment for his rebellion. So I guess that's a two fold judgment: once will you are still alive and another at the day of judgment.

 

But who do you understand the hope of resurrection to include? Exclusively Hebrews or inclusive of Gentiles? Exclusively those who heard the promise or inclusive of those who didn't hear the promise?

 

BTW I replied on the thread: Resurrection and Paul's trial, I remember the last time you did not realise I had replied.

 

JS

There is no such animal as the "preterist view" of the resurrection because there is no uniformity.  Some teach the individual body view and some the collective body view. There are those who believe it is biological. In this class there are those who believe it is in the past (full preterist position) a position that I personally hold and those who believe it is yet future. Then there are those who believe it is spiritual. In this class there are also those who think it was in the past and those who think it is yet future. 

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