Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

I am fairly new to the doctrine of full preterism or covenant eschatology and my question may seem simple to those more schooled in the doctrine. 

I think I understand what the scriptures teach about  the resurrection of the just that it is not a physical resuscitation of dead corpses but a restoration of fellowship with God that was lost through the sin of Adam.

What I do not understand is the resurrection of the unjust.  What was the nature of it? What did it entail? Who was resurrected? Was it limited to unfaithful Israel or was it all people from Adam to the parousia?

Any help appreciated........... thanks,

Ronnos+

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You say "The wicked cease to be, and will not enter the Kingdom. They are outside the gates forever." If the soul is not immortal (and I share your belief that it is not) then is this not the same state they would have been in before they were resurrected?  If so, I am still puzzled as to the purpose of their resurrection.

But I may have missed your point.

If you believe that a resurrection need not be to eternal life (quantitative AND qualitative), then the resurrection of the unjust is one that is qualitative. That is, it is NOT eternal in length, but qualitatively is the opposite of the resurrection of the righteous. So, why does God resurrect the unjust?

I have speculations on this, but haven't worked them all out. One possibility is that God has said that ALL knees will bow to Christ. Perhaps that is the purpose of it (to have all creation, including the unjust, acknowledge God and His Christ.) Or, maybe God wants to ensure that all men who have ever lived hear the gospel?

I honestly don't know, but when I said that the wicked cease to be, I was acknowledging that apart from Christ, no one has life in and of themselves. Therefore, without Christ, there is no life. There  is no immortality, so when the wicked "cease to be", they are ceasing to exist, because in order to continue to exist, they would HAVE to be in Christ, wouldn't they?

There are two resurrections mentioned in the Bible

(1) The spiritual resurrection from the spiritual "death" of a non-believer to a life in relationship with God

(2) The resurrection of all who had died from a physical death to a spiritual state of life - which took place in AD 70

And which of these two points to the Resurrection of the unJust?

Les

As you well know, the Bible only specifically informs us of the finer details of God's plans up until 70AD. We do know for certain that believers now have the oppportunity to enjoy a full relationship with the Father 

I think that we all have to arrive at the answers to this and other similar questions through that personal relationship

Ummmm..........Romans Chap 1 to 3. "Is God unjust who inflicts wrath?"

The upshot seems to be can man escape God's Judgement through annihilation?
The witness of scripture appears to say NO!

Paul's answer is "Certainly not!", having illustrated that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles. How each and every man has sinned and is inexcusable and accountable before God.
CH Dod in his exposition of The Gospel of John gives examples of how in condemning the blind man given his sight the pharisees condemned themselves. Dodd's "Realized Eschatology" sees Judgement taking place in the present through their reaction to Christ and His message.

Whether it is Christ descending to the depths of the place of The Dead or interceding before The Throne of God, Sinners cannot escape God's attention. The power of The Gospel of Christ is that God justifies The Ungodly...........Christ said that if he hadn't have come, then they would have a covering for their sin, but having come and delivered his message their rejection sealed their fate before God and their condemnation ( in the words of Paul in Romans ) is Just.

Revelation goes to great lengths to describe how, "The Sea gave up her Dead". ( Bearing in mind that The Sea has earlier been identified as "Peoples, Tongues and Nations" ) God then judges them according to their works...............Ummmm, not good. If Resurrection is being returned to The Land ( Ezekiel) and finding our "life" in Christ with God, then the resurrection of The Wicked must be the abiding condemnation and wrath of God on the sons of disobedience in the light of their rejection of God's Grace in Christ. The scary thing is that they are being raised to condemnation by God.

Annihilation can be a great comfort to the sinner as it was to me prior to accepting Christ, however I am convinced that God's Justice is forever & ever, "There is no peace / rest for The Wicked", God help us all!

Stephen

Hello Mr Bubble,

This is an old thread, but since you replied to it, I received an email alert, and thought I should respond to your comments.

First off, there were a lot of assumptions made in your response. The first one that struck me is that you equated God's vengeance with some kind of justice. You stated that annihilation is an "escape", as though God demands physical payment for sin. But where did you get this idea?

Tell me, was the physical death of Christ a physical payment for sin? Many assume it was, but if you study the nature of death that occurred in Eden, you know that "in the day they ate" they did NOT die physically. And yet, that was God's promise, wasn't it?

So then, if God said "In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die", did God lie? Of course not! Well, how did Adam "die"? He died in that he became estranged from God, and he died "in his sins", just as we all existed prior to accepting Christ.

Therefore, our repentance, acceptance of the substitution of Christ for our sins, baptism which is a symbol of the burial of the self and granting of eternal life, is all about accepting that Christ did NOT die for our physical bodies. Instead, Jesus died so that we could be made alive.

That said, those who are NOT in Christ are indeed dead already. Their souls are dead. Their spirits are dead also, since it is a requirement that to be alive one must accept the life that Christ offers! 

So to say that those who die WITHOUT Christ must somehow PAY for their sins is a burden you have place on scripture. It is not there. It is a fabrication that comes from the assumption that hell is a place where judgment happens. In fact, hell is a place where someone GOES, not the place where judgment is meted out. The judgment is that you go there, not what happens once you are there.

The nature of hell is really what this debate should be about, not (as you assume) that God creates justice when He sends people to hell.

Annihilation is the natural result of the lack of salvation, since those who die outside of Christ never had life to begin with. The opposite of life is death, plain and simple. The ever burning torture which you assumed in your reply also assumes this to be God's response to sin. But God's response to sin is not torture. God's response to sin is the free offer of life. Those who accept it receive it. Those who do not do not receive it. And as I said, without the granting of life you only have death.

I also will say that presumptions that are made about immortality are simply not scriptural. The notion that humans are born with an intrinsic immortal nature is just wrong. This comes largely from Egyptian, then later, Greek thought that was borrowed from the Egyptians. Almost all religions of the world today think there is some kind of immortal soul that carries on after death. This is because humans WANT to believe in their own individual worth, regardless of their actions. After all, if you have this "immortal soul", then you do have something. But if you have (as scripture attests) nothing more than "the soul that sinneth, it shall die", you have nothing with which to bargain with God. And that is what God WANTS you to know. You bring nothing to the table except the absolute need to have God save you.

Hi Doug,
Good to see your still as passionate and committed as ever.
Personally I don't subscribe to people having an immortal soul, but the thread is about The Resurrection of The Wicked.
So in answer to Paul's rhetorical question ; How is God going to judge the world.........Your answer is?
Apart from that, it is an old thread, but these are eternal issues and visiting the site is a real encouragement in embracing topics and views which may be provocative, but a learning opportunity for all that, and it's The Lord's Day! May the light of His countanance shine upon you......
Stephen

Stephen,

Thank you for your blessings!

I thought the because this is a preterist-centric webpage, it would be obvious what I believe about God's judgment of the world.

Nevertheless, in preterist thought, the judgments spoken of in the bible are centered on the judgment of the remnant Jews at Jerusalem. They (those Jews) represented all that was wrong about the old covenant (and I don't mean the covenant itself was bad or wrong, but instead the distorted religion it had become). God judged Jerusalem because it was the representative center of what the OC had become. It was Babylon.

To assume that when the bible speaks of judgment on the earth to be inclusive of ALL men, including gentiles, is not an accurate portrayal of what Paul means when he discusses judgment. It is always in the context of judgment upon the holy people. Salvation then becomes an escape from this judgment.

When God judged Jerusalem, He poured out His wrath on them, not on all mankind. There is nothing within preterist doctrine that implies judgment on the whole earth. In fact, preterism rejects that idea explicitly because it says there is not some kind of future judgment where Christ will come down and judge the whole earth. That has already happened, and when we say "whole earth", we mean the earth of the "heavens and earth" spoken of in scripture, which means allegorically and metaphorically the relationship between God and man that was set up from the beginning. It includes the old covenant and all the laws contained within it. It also includes the transgression of those laws and the penalties of those transgressions.

So, judgment has begun at the house of God. Now, under the new covenant, God is offering people entrance into the new heavens and the new earth, which just like the OC, is not a physical destination, but a spiritual one. It is a relationship. The penalty for not entering into His peace is eternal estrangement from God, which is death. The opposite of death of course is life. 

That is why I went to lengths to explain life and death in my previous post. Annihilation is death, being cut off eternally from God. The judgment for sin, even for the unsaved, has its own self-imposed punishment, that is, death. There is no need for God to "judge the world" as you put it. He already did at Jerusalem in 70AD. But "the world", or the old heavens and the old earth, are gone. The world of today is in a sea of sin, and its judgment is an ongoing one that happens naturally. The only salve that fixes that is the atonement of Christ, the covering of sin and the restoration of a relationship with God through the blood of Christ. 

Resurrecting the wicked is yet another discussion, but I had to spend time on the issue of judgment before I could talk about resurrection.

Thank you for your reply, but my point made previously is that Paul drew no distinction between Jews & Gentiles in their accountability to God for Sin.
What is Christ saving us from if not from Condemnation & Judgement for Sin? I heartily agree that Christ has made an end of Sins........That in Christ there is no Condemnation, but that doesn't mean God has given a free pass to those who suppress The Truth in unrighteousness...............Does it?
God resurrects The Wicked, that's why they have only the fearful looking for of Judgement, that's why, Christians are the savour of death to them.

Apart from that, have a great week.
Stephen

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