Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

I am very new to FP thinking. Literally, I only allowed myself to take an open look at it about a week ago! I have been orthodox or partial preterist for about 3 years, having come out of baptist dispensational teaching all my life. About two-three weeks ago I found Steve Gregg's teaching online. I had never listened to him before and the more I listened to his eschatology lectures, especially that of the Olivet Discourse the more I began to think if the "coming" there was the destruction at AD70 then why not in Revelation as well and if it is in Revelation then must the New heaven and new earth also be consummated as it made no sense to stop the path it was headed and divert to thousands of years later....I then realized I was on a very slippery slope toward what I feared was heresy. Steve Gregg is still partial preterist but I don't see how he can remain so with as far down the slope he has already slid! Therefore I decided to go find a FP site and see what they had to say to make it all work, because while I could see how one could go to FP thought with eschatology, I just couldn't see how the rest of scripture could work with it. I found this site just this week and have been blown away with how well studied everyone is here and how orthodox the FP view fits in with the redemption story and the means of salvation....it is not heresy in my mind but just changes so much about what the church has taught for centuries that I can see why others find it heresy.

I say all that just for background and now to the point of this post... I was starting to feel somewhat comfortable and even excited about all I have been learning about FP and how much sense the Bible makes when interpreted with that hermeneutic, but as I was trying to fall asleep last night it dawned on me that if all of this is indeed the proper interpretation we can not escape the fact that Satan and his demons are dead, forever dead! Then all this evil in our world is simply the depravity of man? My brother says I am so wrong to think that Satan is now bound and yet so much evil in the world (my thinking as a partial preterist) and how can I possibly think that! He will think me a heretic for sure if I tell him I no longer think that but instead think he is already in the lake of fire, forever! Also the beast and false prophet are dead... But how can that be, as we have seen antichrist types of plenty since AD70 and even presently still do? Was it only Nero and the Roman Empire that went into the lake of fire? But Rome did not fall in AD70. I have tons more questions but this one about satan and anti-christs is enough for now. I know that my thinking is still in a state of mixture between my old understanding and the new ideas trying to mesh together and it will take time for me to figure it all out without mixing the two, but this seems the most confusing of all my questions right now. Thanks to all who can help me understand!

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Here are a couple sermons by David Curtis.

#1.Satan's Role in the New Covenant

#2.Satan's Demise

 

Don Preston's The Binding of Satan

 
The Doctrine of Satan by Greg Rasaka
http://www.restorationgj.com/id198.htm

Let me know what you think and good luck.

 

I have read the first three.  The last link takes me to a page that is no longer active.  The other stuff was very good though and it looks like the David Curtis link has a lot more great info.  I am going to go through the Don Preston one a little more when I have more time as I kind of breezed over it quickly.  It all makes good sense, but the one thing still hanging me up is how there are still anti-christs and new beasts and false profits in the world… so I just need to realize I guess that it would be so since there are also still sinners in the world and they are the ones who are outside the gates (of the New Jerusalem) in outer darkness?  Any enlightenment on this?  Thanks and I will keep reading!

I'm sorry for the bad link I thought I had corrected it.

Please try this one.Many links change or sites go down after time.I usually download them so I'll have a copy.

http://www.restorationgj.com/id198.htm

That one works! Thanks!

Hello Joy,

When it comes to a 70 AD disposal of Satan in the lake of fire, I have no problem seeing the scriptural proof for this.  I'd like to add one more question related to your topic, though.  My one point of uncertainty is when others include all the demonic forces being sent to the lake of fire along with Satan.  Don't get me wrong - I'd be more than happy if they were all disposed of in one fell swoop.  But since the verse in Rev. 20:10 only mentions Satan himself and not his minions, I am reluctant to read something into the passage that isn't specifically stated there.  Is the term Satan in these verses used as a type of synecdoche, so that if he is eliminated as a threat, all those demons under his leadership are presumed to be sharing the same fate?  Or is it something similar to eliminating Osama Bin Laden, with the intention of rendering the forces under the man leaderless with their power crippled?  Sorry if that's a rather inexact analogy.  Of course, this question wouldn't have any relevance for those who do not acknowledge an actual spirit-being called the devil or Satan.

Your analogy to Osama Bin laden makes good sense. I would suppose the other fallen angels would have gone with satan into the fire but you are right that it doesn't say. Are there some in FP who do not think Satan is a real personality but just symbolic for evil in general? It seems the bible doesn't tell us much about the physical reality we are left with on this earth after AD70, nor when or if it will ever end. I can see why partial preterist want to try to preserve something to be directed at us now in the physical reality.

Hi Joy,

Your preterist journey sounds like almost a duplicate of mine - early baptist premil disp. training, switching to partial pret. 2-3 years ago, and then seeing a lot of the full pret. position in scripture quite recently.  In fact, it was a member of this site (who I believe is totally full pret.) that visited our church several months ago and jogged my mind toward studying some of the full pret. positions more intently.  I have come to adopt an eclectic mix of all the positions, so that I don't really fit squarely in any of the camps.  Classification and "orthodoxy" isn't really an issue for me, though, and hasn't been since I was a young teen.  When you have been kicked out of a university and then a church because of your doctrinal beliefs and "delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh", men's opinions and evaluations don't really matter much any more.   All I care about is whether God is revealing truth to me by His spirit as I read His word.  

If you are able to see that almost all of Revelation has been fulfilled, as the book itself claims, then Satan's elimination in 70 AD is believable.  If Satan is no longer operating in this world, then the concept that this is a new earth is believable.  (Same planet, but new ingredients - or rather, that Satan as an ingredient of this world is no longer present)  We label products on the shelf as "new and improved" all the time.  In this sense, we are occupying a new earth.  With this understanding in place, the prophecies in Isaiah 65:17 of new heavens and a new earth and the imminent new heavens and new earth in II Peter 3:13 can now make sense.  

However, I do see the scripture teaching a finishing point to this age we are currently experiencing.  This is where some of my full pret. brothers and sisters would not agree.  The concept of a finishing point to this age is shown when you study the types laid out in the OT.  Notice, I am not claiming that the planet is going to go up in a smoking fireball at the completion of this age.  I have no scriptural grounds for that, not even the traditionally misunderstood verses in II Peter 3:10-12.  

Here is one passage in the NT which I believe indicates an end to this current age we are in.  Ephesians 2:7 says ".....that in the AGES that are coming, he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."  The word is plural - ages - not singular.  If you use audience relevance to interpret this, the original readers of Ephesians would be anticipating ages (plural) to come.  That would mean they could expect in their lifetime an end to the old covenant age (hello 70 AD), with the establishment of the new covenant age (which we are currently in), but BEYOND THAT yet at least ANOTHER age.  If anyone thinks this is nitpicking, I would remind them how Paul based an entire doctrine on whether a word was interpreted as "seed" or "seeds".  

I could go into the types I see from the OT more fully to bolster this position, but I don't want to diverge from the intent of your original post here.  

Thanks Patricia!

It is encouraging to read what you wrote about orthodoxy.  I was just sitting here pondering about the fear I feel when I think about expressing my new thinking to some of my family who are staunch traditionalists, knowing they will fear I am not truly saved if I tell them all of it.  I feel I am not ready to do that until I have a much better grasp on exactly what I do believe and how to defend it without becoming defensive.  Part of me thinks it does not matter and should I tell them at all because they love the Lord and have salvation so what good does my telling them what I have learned do for them?  Then I think about how many atheists and agnostics there are and some of them my friends, who might reconsider if they knew the truth of the Bible according to the preterist paradigm.  I was thinking some of us here are maybe "in the closet" so to speak…. afraid to voice our thoughts in our christian families and churches, and maybe we do need to be very careful of that, but what about our atheist friends… can we reach them with this message where traditional teaching has failed?  Also if we stay "in the closet" are we being obedient to take the true message to the lost, for we might need to change the "church" in order to be effective reaching the lost?  It is a bold mission and one that will require sacrifice.  I have much to learn first to even know how to defend it when they start throwing out of context verses in my face and using a literalistic viewpoint whenever it suits them….crushing me with condemnation for daring to question the literality of God's Word (when they are blind to the fact that they are the one's not taking it literal… literal in the way it was intended to be read culturally, symbolically and/or metaphorically that is)!

Please do tell me more about the OT types that help you in your view of an end to this age.  I do think that is something that would help traditional christians not be so quick to hurl heresy charges with this doctrine. I do think there will be an end… after all, God knows the full number of the righteous but how could He know that if there is never an end to new righteous coming into the gates?  (I heard this issue of infinity was the reason Sam Frost left the full preterist view). 

Joy... you sound a little funny... do this, don't do that... stay in the closet, come out of the closet.  You almost do not sound real or are you so confused about your paradigm. You can not be an apologetic in something that you know very little about. You need a lot more study of this paradigm than you have already. Most here have been Preterists for years and years and really don't give a hoot what 'orthodoxy' people think about us (me). I have been called a heretic by some, dis-fellowship by others, but ultimately when they could not rebuttal honestly by using Scripture of my paradigm , their air of holier than thou resided a lot.  We have asked questions that those of the 'orthodox' can not or will not answer.  http://www.biblicalpreteristarchive.com/statements/70-Qs.htm

Here is what David Curtis has to say about Ephesians 2:7 

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/ephesians/eph-02_07-09...

Hmmm....Brother Les, I guess I will have to give your statements some thought. I wonder at what you mean that "I do not sound real". I am real for sure but you are right in that I am most likely as yet very confused in my paradigm, and that is why I said I am not ready to share with traditionalists about this viewpoint since I don't have it figured out well enough to adequately defend it if challenged. That said, though I am very excited about it and want to share it although I have read the vile things many anti-preterist sites say about FP and that makes me fear reaction and condemnation. However, the bible makes so much more sense and proves Jesus was who He said He was as all His prophecies came true, and if atheists understood that I think they might take a new look at the bible with new eyes. Maybe I am being naive? This viewpoint removes so much contradiction too. I have been told from some on this site that they go to traditional churches and simply do not share their FP views, and some do not even share with their families (thus my closet statement) and I understand that but wish it did not need to be so, because how will this teaching ever become mainstream? I appreciate that you have been preterist for a very long time and have found a way to not care about the dis-fellowship or what others think of your beliefs and that does require boldness that hopefully will come with time and better understanding, but I just don't have it yet.
Btw, thanks for the links.....gonna go check them out now. I have downloaded chiton but not had time to read him yet? Thanks!

Joy,

I do beleive satan is gone, as well as his minions (bedo, bedo) :)

Anyway, it is n't a popular idea, but it is biblical.

Scripture says every man sins when he is drawn away of his OWN lust. IT doesn't blame satan for evil.

Scripture also says there is none good, no not one.

Where the problem comes in for most is that they simply can't believe that the evil that comes into their hearts is coming from themselves. We so much want to believe in our own goodness, that when some thought springs into our minds, we just have to blame something or someone who is more evil than we are. Hence, the idea of satan!

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