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O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The Covenant Creation Conference 2010 (Finding the Lost World of Genesis 1, by Tim Martin)

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Hey Tim,

Concerning your statements about doing Church a different way, I have two books for you.

1) Pagan Christanity
2) Reimagining Church

Both books are by Frank Viola. Both are fantastic. What is amazing is he is your standard futuist yet he sees all the problems with the institutional Church. I can't recommend these two books enough to you. Get them and read them in the order above. He presents excatly what you were referring to.

-Rich
Rich,

Yes, I am familiar with this work. I am very much in sympathetic agreement, though certain details (related to the 1st century sign-gifts) don't work for me.

There are a lot of people coming at these topics with a fresh look. I am optimistic for the future on all of this stuff.

Tim
Tim,

So you've read those two books?

I agree certain details don't work. The same ones don't work for me either because I'm a preterist. I told you he was a futurist. But, Walton is a futurist too, yet you see they way he understands certain things. Viola is in the same boat. How is presents the way the Church should exist today is right on. He just doesn't understand all the correct reasons why it should exist the way he presents. I think 95% of his case for stating the Church should exist the way he presents it is right on.

-Rich
Tim,

I think it was in this audio (?) that you responded to the question that has been asked in different ways regarding what we would offer from Scripture as evidence that God created the material universe, if indeed that is not the subject of Genesis 1. I just saw that question rephrased on another fourm this way:

"I just see a lot of difficult problems for apologetics if empiricism can't yield a single god who created the material universe, and He is not revealed as that creator in scripture."

And you gave what I thought was a wonderful answer when you pointed to the miracles recorded in the gospels. You pointed out the obvious, which is that for God to exercise control over the material elements He would have to be the Creator of the material world. To connect the dots between what you said and the question quoted above, what we have in the gospels is the confirmation that:

1. Jesus is Almighty God ("I AM"--as in, "and beside me there is no other")
2. Jesus controls the physical universe

I think that answers the gentleman's question above about Scripture revealing a "single God" who created the universe.

Good stuff. :)
Tami,


while I agree, I also don't see what the problem is. Who is man that he should require God to reveal who and how the material universe was created? God doesn't reveal anything about the after life at the end of the Scriptures (what life is like after we physically die and life in eternity "there") yet Preterist don't complain, so why is it such a problem that he doesn't reveal certain things at the beginning?

The point of the Scriptures, God's work, is redemption people. Saving man has nothing to do with the physical! So, it isn't surprising that God doesn't address the creation of the physical just as he dosen't address the destruction of the physical.

-Rich
Tami,

Yes, that is my response to that objection.

Who else but the creator of the physical universe can provide miracles in the natural world that serve a redemptive purpose? Seems like a really basic observation to me.

Tim Martin
Hi Tim! I just finished listening to the podcast and wanted to thank you for taking the time to do an overview of the covenant creation view. It was very helpful to me and I feel that you layed down a solid foundation for the rest of the conference lectures. So thanks!

Also, the "proposed" lecture on rethinking how we "do" church is such a timely and important issue that is on the minds and hearts of many preterists. I know you said that this topic isnt actually on the slate for next year, but I am extremely interested in hearing more about "fellowshiping with God through His People" if you have taught or preached a message on it.

I actually did perk up when I heard you say that "We are created for fellowship with God" and since I came from the PCA church I immediately thought, "no man's chief end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever", but then I got thinking about what does that really mean. Anyway, I have a lot of questions about this and it would be very helpful to first listen to any audio files or read any articles where you have discussed the subject further...? Thanks! Ok, moving onto Norm's!
Tim,

What a great shot out of the box and a great way to set the table and getting this show on the road.

"Lets get ready to rumble" came to my mind :)

Your opening had enough information about what the debate is about and if someone didn't know before they should by now and it should have wet their appetite for more...If they are truly interested.

I wasn't for sure about the internet only conference but i think it was a success and not only due to the speakers but Mike Loomis has done a fantastic job.

One thing that has always stuck with me even with last years conference is the humility all the speakers show.I think that's important and shows we're just interested in studying together and trying to dot some I's and cross some T's.

You talked about how Covenant Creation challenges some long held views and it just remained me of when i was a futurist coming into preterism and i now see the same type arguments being made from preterist that i saw from the futurist.

It's the well "what about this and what about that?" And when you answer the about this...you get no comment but but "what about THAT"! It's like people are more interested in playing i gotcha game.

Full Preterism has been around 50 years or so and there are still conversations going on with the IBN vs IBD... the corporate body is till a topic most of us still struggle with but yet opponents of Covenant Creation seem to demand every answer conform to their "paradigm" and if not then they think they can refute the whole view with silly questions about "animals" being symbolic.

It's the futurist argument all over again :)

Full Preterism will not survive without the Covenant Creation model in the long run.IMHO.

Thanks for putting this all together Tim, i know it's taken a lot of time away from your and the other speakers families but i know you and they all agree with me it's worth it.

Blessings
John,

I agree that the internet format was a challenge. As far as content goes, however, I am very satisfied with how things turned out. Those sessions are available for download on demand, and will be very effective down the road as people investigate the Genesis issue within full-preterism and even from without.

Thanks for the comment. I deem this work to be very important for the long run. My family agrees and is willing to sacrifice some things to enable me to focus on the studies when necessary. God has been good to all of us through the project, and I anticipate even better things in the future as the model develops.

I am already looking forward to the conference next year.

Blessings,

Tim Martin

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