O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The Covenant Creation Conference 2010 (Adam: The First Covenant Man, by Jerel Kratt)

Adam: The First Covenant Man, by Jerel Kratt



Covenant Man Summary

Adam, before placedin Garden (no law)

Adam/covenant man, after the Fall (under law)

Gentile/non-covenant man,in all ages (both under & not under law)

Covenant Man, after Resurrection (under grace)


(no knowledge of law)


(knowledge of law)

Innocent and guilty (varyingknow. of law)

Notdeclared guilty

(though know. oflaw)

Not righteous

(yet sinis within him)



Notrighteous (sin is within all)


(thoughhe sins)

Not condemned


Both condemned and not condemned

Not condemned


Clothed himself(works)

Various clothing (works)

Clothed inChrist


Mortality magnified




Earthy magnified



Livingsoul (psuche)

Natural (psuchikon) magnified





Discuss this lecture here.

Views: 1626


Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

This was so good I almost cried.

And it contains the second best exposition of 1 Corinthians 15 I've heard. :)

Jerel said something like this (quoting from memory): "It is not possible to understand the garden story apart from Paul." This is such a critical point. And it goes both ways. It is not possible to separate Paul's theology in Romans 5-7 from Adam's story in Genesis. (And of course we are once and for all rid of the erroneous "Sinai view," aka, "the-old-covenant-began-with-Moses" view.) favorite "nugget" (pure gold!) from this talk was Jerel's term "fellowship death" to replace the very inadequate (and inaccurate) term "spiritual death" to describe what Adam lost at the fall. The term "spiritual death" had been tripping me up because it implies that Adam once had "spiritual life" in conradiction to what Paul is teaching in 1 Corinthians 15.

Thanks, Jerel!

Thank you Tami for such encouraging feedback! It truly was a joy to do. Thank you and John for providing this forum for discussion.

I'm looking forward to more feedback. Unfortunately I will be traveling 10 of the next 14 days on two business trips, so I might not be able to make very many replies for another two weeks.

God bless,
I found it very interesting in Jerel's discussion that we find our orthodox view of the soul is actually derived from Plato and the Greeks instead of Jews. Now I understand why some are so driven by the Greek philosophical mindset in appropriating a view of mankind in Genesis that is in opposition to the Jewish view because they find it within Greek philosophy. It now is clear that this Greek view is what many Christians think is orthodox yet it has nothing in common with the Hebrew mind. The modern orthodox Christian often has appropriated so much Greek Philosophy that they can't tell when the Greek mind and the Hebrew mind is coming and going.
Yes, that was interesting.

Jerel also made the case from the Old Testament that believers under the Old Covenant knew that there was no conscious existence for them after physical death. Ie, they did not hold to the Greek (and unScriptural) idea of the immortality of the soul. :)

Can you clarify the "quote" you are referring to?

If you are responding to my comment, I did not quote Jerel directly, but referred (in my own words) to something he discussed in his lecture which I agree with. Namely that believers under the old covenant (who died in an unregenerate state, unforgiven of their sins since they died prior to the cross) were essentially non-existent. Therefore when they were raised, they were truly raised from the dead.

I see "sleep" in that context as a euphemism for physical death. They were not literally sleeping, as in alive and resting, or as in what some refer to as "soul sleep." They were dead. David knew that when he went "down to the pit" he would have no awareness, no consciousness, no memory...he knew that he would cease to exist.

There is no immortaliy apart from Christ. That was a critical point Jerel made in his lecture.
Yes, it certainly is a nuisance. :)
WOW Jerel, your presentation was fantastic! I find it to fit exactly where my mind was also already going. Of course I didn't have it worked out to the point you have.

I must say. This year’s CC Conference is blowing the doors off Genesis. We are finally seeing where the ramifications of Preterism takes us. I truly feel sorry for those who see Preterism at the end and then can't go any further because of the same faulty problem of wanting to grasp hold of the physical. How and why they let it go at one end and yet want to hold on to it at all cost at the other end is truly a mind boggling exercise.

I praise God for people like you, Tim, JL, Tami. I say keep thinking and working out the Scriptures.

I am going to have to listen to you presentation many times over with my Bible laid out. There was a lot of information presented.

Thanks again for your words.


P.S. Where is the article with the chart to go with the audio posted at?
Another point that Jerel made in this lecture, which I feel is of paramount significance:

Paul, when contrasting the natural to the spiritual in 1 Corinthians 15, goes back to Genesis 2:7 for a description of the natural man (ie, the living soul). This "natural man," this "living soul," is the state of Adam before he fell. And as Jerel said, "that is what Paul is bringing his resurrection doctrine back to...that is the state from which they were to be resurrected." And how about this gutsy statement:

"Resurrection is about fixing a problem that precedes the sin of Adam!" (Jerel, thanks for saying that outloud. I had my head bit off once by a renowned preterist "reverend" for saying the same exact thing.)

Again, how does 1 Corinthians 15 describe the state of Adam before he fell? Here are his characteristics according to Paul:

earthy (of the dust)

This is something I've been pointing out for awhile now, because it has huge implications on how we understand the nature of resurrection. And also how we understand the "image of God" reference in Genesis 1. 1 Corinthians 15 is the one text which has made it impossible for me to see the "image of God" as something that was ever possessed by unregenerate man. I don't want to put words in Jerel's mouth, but he said a lot on this subject that is in harmony with where my thinking has been for a long time.
I'm curious, if man didn't have the image and likeness of God until Adam was formed from the dust, then how could Adam be in possession of that image and likeness once he fell in sin and death? Is it possible that Adam was not the 'mankind' that was created in the image and likeness of God - who IS spirit? Because there are angels whom God created too...and they seem to be the ones who were the host of heaven and earth that were given the dominion of it.
Good question. Was he?

Does this Rom. 5:14 apply?

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

That verse might imply Adam was the image. Not something to possess, but to be.

What about Rom. 8:29?

For those whom He foreknew, He also destined from the beginning to be molded into the image of His Son, that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

Does this verse state that people would, in Paul's future, be made in the image? If so, then some people at the time of Paul were not yet made in the image.

Does this imply Adam lost the image or lost being the image? Otherwise, Adam would have been firstborn.

Thoughts Robin?

By the way, Norm's talk on Augustine would imply no one, not even Adam had the image then. The image was/is purely for those who believed in Christ.

More thoughts?

Man never lost being the image of God. It has nothing to do with a condition of being sinless.
1 Cor 11:7

I would like to hear an explanation about your understanding of the Image of God inculding how it is used in the OT and the NT.


Olivet Discourse Movie

How the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the first century.
Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21
Riley O'Brien Powell


Delivered from the Law

Started by Internet_Troll in Questions and Best Answers We Can Give!. Last reply by Internet_Troll Apr 15. 13 Replies

FEAR obviously struck..

Started by Julia A Waldron in Eschatology. Last reply by John Mar 24. 1 Reply

For the Preterist

Started by Julia A Waldron in Eschatology. Last reply by Julia A Waldron Mar 24. 22 Replies

Isaiah 2:2-4 Used to refute preterism

Started by Steve G. in Eschatology. Last reply by Patricia Watkins Aug 13, 2018. 1 Reply

This Site Active?

Started by Doug in Eschatology. Last reply by Patricia Watkins Jul 29, 2018. 28 Replies

Gen 1 vs Isa 51

Started by Internet_Troll in Eschatology. Last reply by Internet_Troll May 3, 2018. 4 Replies

The sin of the Gentiles

Started by Internet_Troll in Questions and Best Answers We Can Give!. Last reply by Brother Les Jan 18, 2018. 3 Replies

Adam as Israel

Started by Internet_Troll in Eschatology. Last reply by Internet_Troll Nov 5, 2017. 9 Replies

Though he dies yet shall he live

Started by Internet_Troll in Questions and Best Answers We Can Give!. Last reply by Internet_Troll Apr 25, 2017. 8 Replies

The parousia and judgment of nations

Started by Internet_Troll in Eschatology. Last reply by Joseph Rehby Jul 6, 2017. 16 Replies

Preterist Networking

Started by Judy Peterson in Prayer Requests. Last reply by Judy Peterson Apr 8, 2018. 21 Replies

The 10 Tribes of Israel

Started by Internet_Troll in Questions and Best Answers We Can Give!. Last reply by Judith Ann Maness Aug 4, 2018. 10 Replies

Online Teaching Elders

Started by Eohn Rhodes in Eschatology. Last reply by Doug Dec 22, 2015. 4 Replies

Who is the abomination of desolation ?

Started by Stairway To Heaven in Eschatology. Last reply by Brother Les Dec 11, 2015. 3 Replies

Divine council

Started by Sharon Q in Eschatology. Last reply by Sharon Q Oct 3, 2015. 5 Replies

© 2019   Created by Tim Martin.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service