O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
This is actually the last of my two part questions regarding preterism (resurrection and the end of the covenant). Apparently, it is said in preterism that the Old Covenant remained up till AD70. There are most likely varying view pertaining this but here goes:
Does the ending of the OC in AD70 mean Christians (or anybody for that matter) were bound to keep the law up to AD70?
How is Heb 9:15-17 understood which seems to imply the new covenant was put in force with the death of Jesus?
Plainly Gentiles. By Pauls' letter it seems that they also had some run ins with Judaizers who were giving them grief about what they were eating, new moons, holy days and Sabbaths. 'Jews' would have not changed the way they ate or followed the calendar, they had no reason to change from following the 'New Moons' and the Sabbaths.
Yes, I expected such an answer as that, but obviously do not agree with you at all.
It is unthinkable that God expected Christians to be so divided, with the Israelites in one "church" obeying the Law and the Gentiles not keeping the Law at all. I just don't understand how you can believe that this is what happened.
I suppose you also believe that Hebrews was written to Gentiles too? You would have to believe that because it reads
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
This is NOT speaking of Law keeping but being led and guided by God Himself who lives in them through His spirit
It is also written in Hebrews that "By calling this covenant ‘new’, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear"
But according to your beliefs, God still expects the Israelite believers to conform to an obsolete covenant
"Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Do you know what this means? It means that to return back to obeying the Law for Israelite believers is trampling Jesus under their feet and insulting God.
I won't be continuing this discussion any more. I cannot persuade people about their beliefs - only God can do that to those who humbly ask Him in prayer and with an open mind
1). I don't believe that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
2). As the title says.... Hebrews.... it should be viewed as written to them (Hebrews). When read from that view point and placing yourself in the readers shoes 'as a first century Hebrew', (and does or had followed the Law of Moses) the book comes alive in relevancy.
3) You said "According to your belief, God still expects the Israelite believers to conform to an obsolete law".
You have a Bible or two ( I have no clue on how many I have), do you read and digest the whole thing or only the parts that you want? Read the sermon below on Acts 21:15-40 and see if it will open your heart and mind a little more. Remember the the time period between 30 AD to 70 AD was a huge transitional period of The People of God.
Interesting link, especially this part:
And these Jewish Christians were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ. They were joined to Christ, who had died to the Law, and they were raised with Him. So the Jewish Christian was free, free to obey the Law and free to not obey the Law because they had kept the Law perfectly in Christ.
So the Jewish Christians were no longer bound to the law but were free from it. Now, no one could legitimately keep the law without coming to Christ, yet everyone who came to Christ would be free from the law. The only conclusion I see is that no one could legitimately be under the law anymore but all were commanded to come to Christ and be free from the law.
Scripture plainly shows that the Jerusalem Jewish Body/church/Assembly/Elect worshiped at The Temple and kept the whole Law of Moses (+ Jesus) at the very least to the time frame of after the Apostle Paul's arrest and his shipment to Rome. And most likely to the very time of the siege of Jerusalem when All of the Messiahtains left Jerusalem and Judea and headed to Pella. The very Leadership (not just James) made sure to show The Jewish Messiahtain converts that the Apostle Paul was not Forsaking the Law of Moses and that Paul was NOT teaching 'Israelites' to forsake the Law of Moses. Paul told Gentiles not to 'come under The Law', for They were never under it and it was very shortly going to be gone and replaced by a better Marriage Contract. Jesus Christ was Born Under The Law of Moses. All of these 'Israelites' at that time were Born under The Law of Moses (Contract). All Israelites were under The Death Cloud of The Law. Jesus said that He came not to Destroy the contract but to Fulfill the contract. His Death WAS NOT the Full Fulfillment of the Law and Prophets.... the Judgement is the full fulfillment. The (Marriage Contract) Judgement is on The People (Alive and Dead at that time)... The Place (Judea, Jerusalem, The Temple) and The Law and Prophets (The fulfillment to come in AD70 with in The Mosaic Law contract and the words of The Prophets). James in his letter to 'The Twelve Tribes', said that if you kept part of The Law, then you must keep all of it (until the Judgement). There is no way that a person of Jewish linage can not keep the parts about 'Love God', 'Love your Neighbor', and not be 'judged' because a person left out the other '8' commandments and hundreds of precepts. There was to be JUDGEMENT.... Judgement...Judgement. Sure... have the first century Jews walk away from The Law of Moses and say....'We believe in only Jesus Christ...'. I think that Jesus may have reminded these LAW Breakers... that He (Jesus) said that every jot and tittle was in full force until Heaven (Temple) and Earth (people) passed away. 'They' (you if you lived in the first century) would have not followed Jesus by His word, but by your own heart.... and your own mind. You would be a law breaker and subject to the ascribed penalty. Your first century Faith would have been void, because your Works/actions would have made them so. As The Children of Israel were under The Cloud of Judgement for 40 years wondering in the Wilderness. The Reproach of Egypt was not rolled away from them until the full 40 years were up and the Judgements were complete (type) (Joshua 5). Like wise, The Reproach of that Great City that is Called Babylon/Sodom/Gomorrah/Egypt...ie. Jerusalem is not Rolled away from The People until the Full 40 years (one generation) from the Death of The Sinai Covenant maker Joshua Messiah (Anti-type). You are looking at and teaching a Post AD70 paradigm, but those first century Jewish Messiahtains were living in a Pre AD70 reality. Open your eyes and open your heart to their Jewish first century world.
I hope you saw the questions I posted on page 4 there.
Now, I guess I should have said this clearly but I have no doubt (as is clear from Scripture) that the Jewish Christians, particularly while in Jerusalem, kept the whole law. For me this has not been an issue. Just as I discussed with Eohn, the question is not about what people did (keep the law) or what they struggled with (temptation to go back to the law) but the question is the spiritual realities and what God required.
You will find the quote from the sermon said that Jewish Christians were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ
Do you agree with this? What does this mean in terms of being bound/required to keep the law?
I saw the questions posted. A book could be printed if every question is answered in detail. I tried to combine the thoughts into one large explanation.
As for the statement of were made to die to the Law through the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ can be viewed as The Church.
Look to what David Curtis posted
and the total verse of
The way to the Holy of Holies was not yet open as long as the Earthly Temple stood. The Apostle Paul in his Preaching always stated "I Have... but not yet" speak.
To die to The Law shows that The Curse(s) of The Law were not now (at the time Romans was written) held over the Jewish Christians at the Judgment.... But The Blessings of The Law decree were to be Given to the Jewish Christians at The Coming New Covenant Marriage. To Die to the Law, was To Live Because OF The Law. Where were these People to stand at the time of The Judgments? "Good and Faithful Servant or I never knew you"? The Law was still there and the Judgments were still to come at AD70.... but these Jewish Christian already knew the verdict that would be read at the Judgment Court. There was still time for those who had veiled faces and that live in the Law and will Die because of it, still thinking that their Sin Judgment will be Rolled forward year after year forever. The 'Forever' Judgments for 'alive' in The Law came in AD70. (From Josephus no Jewish Christians died at Jerusalem when it and The Temple were destroyed in AD70)
Bro Les wrote:
I saw the questions posted. A book could be printed if every question is answered in detail.
Fortunately I am in no hurry, I am very willing to listen to you give your views as you find time. Without the direct answers to the questions I am unable to comprehend your explanation of Heb 9:15-17 and the implications of accepting your explanation.
Bro Les wrote:
To die to The Law shows that The Curse(s) of The Law were not now (at the time Romans was written) held over the Jewish Christians at the Judgment
Do you mean that to live to the law is to be under its curse and to die to the law is to be under its blessing?
Rom 7:4 seems to say the reason why the believers died to the law was so that they could be married to another i.e. Christ. It seems to say the relationship in toto with the law had to end, not just the judgment (at least if the overtones of avoiding adultery are carried through). If being married to the law means being under it judgment/curses, does being married to Christ mean being under Christ's judgment/curses?
Where in Romans do you find the issue with being realesed from (v6), dying to (v4) the law being specifically with the judgment under the law as opposed to the whole law in general?
I am indeed familiar with David Curtis' sermons
However - I am not convinced.
Please think again about what I mentioned previously - would God really have insisted that the Israelites in every "church" would have to keep the Law and yet the Gentiles would not? How would this contribute to unity?
Where does David Curtis go off track? He, Himself would say that he is not trying to convince you of anything, only showing you what he sees in Scripture. (Whether he or we like what we see or not) We all have veils over our faces to a certain degree about many things. We have baggage of our old lives that we never want to get rid of and hold onto certain 'truths', 'because we know that is so'...... until proven differently beyond a shadow of doubt. I still refuse to give up some of my 'baggage', enough though I know that I can not 'defend it' from a Preterist view point...per a good search of Scripture. You speak of 'church unity.... the uniting factor was Joshua Messiah in the First Century. But both groups ( Messiahtain Gentiles and Jews) came from different paths and backgrounds toward that uniting factor. Both 'groups' had to complete their walk on the path that they were on, traveling, to reach The Goal, at the Consummation of The Age. (They played the 'cards' that life dealt them) Did their paths cross? Yes it did. Paul said that "IN Christ", there is NO Jew or Gentile, Slave or Free..... "IN CHRIST".... in the material 'world' the Slaves did not all at once become FREEMEN...., Jews did not all at Once become 'Gentiles'..... or vice a versa.... Why not???? Because IN CHRIST there was no such thing as Jew/Gentile/Slave/Free..... but 'life' went on according to The Laws. The Laws of Rome (slave/free) did not change, etc. The Cross did not change The Law of Moses (It Was Part of The Law By HIM becoming the Perfect Sacrifice) And The Prophets. The path of the fleshly Jews was still set 'IN STONE' until the Judgments. In the Material world, the saying goes."All Roads lead to Rome." In the Spiritual World, 'All roads lead to Christ'.... for the Blessings and Curses Judgments.
The 'church'(s) down through the New Covenant Age, seem to always be divided by 'something', but the uniting factor in all of the church's is Jesus Christ.
After having given this some thought and reading through Acts - I can now say that you are correct and I agree with you
Thanks for persevering with me
Thank-you Brother Euripidides for your kind words. When it comes to the Bible, I know that the more that I know, the more that I really don't know, but wish to. We assume so much, because of what we have 'heard' from the pulpit and Sunday School for years after years. Learning is life long. 'We',also know that the Sunday School books and our ministers seems to shy away of some subject that are harder to explain than a 15 minute sound bite. The very hardest thing about learning, is to unlearn something that we forever thought was 'true' and then 'find out' that there may be a 'twist' in there that was never thought about.