O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

   The King James uses the "faith of Christ" and most other translations use "faith in Christ". To me this is a huge difference that is seldom discussed. For example, "I am crucified with Christ and the life I now live I live by the faith of the son of God". It's not my faith but his faith.

   If Christ was the "seed" of the promise of righteousness made to Abraham (Galatians), that would exclude all other humans - both Jews and Gentiles. It would thus be "the faith of Christ" that would save and not our faith. Thus we are not saved by our faith but by "his faith".

   When we use the term "in Christ" that doesn't mean individually because the promise of righteousness was not made to us through the law but but made to Christ through faith, i.e. "his faith'. It is because of his faith that we are "in Christ".  This removes the individual from having responsibility for his own salvation.

  This explains the passage in Romans why "all" died in Adam and "all" are made alive in Christ. God made it so that all died in Adam so God could make all alive in Christ.


   Appreciate any comments on this. Thanks



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 Hello Donald,

        If Christ's faith is the only faith needed for salvation then who hasn't obtained it?


   Thanks for the reply Freddy.

   It would mean that everyone has obtained salvation. My point was that the covenant made with Abraham was a promise of righteousness. Since the promise was made "not to seeds as of many, but of one which is Christ" that would exclude all members of the human race except Christ. 

   This explains passages like "by one man all die, by one man all are made alive". Also, if the new covenant was fulfilled in 70 a.d. then we are in a time now where righteousness dwells. This ties in with my question, "Did the Church end in 70 a.d.  If righteousness now dwells, what is the need for the Church other than some sort of fellowship based on thankfulness.  


Righteousness only dwells in the New Heavens and Earth.

2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

To say "that everyone has obtained salvation" would be a major error IMO and not supported scripturally.

Rev 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. 

Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul is not teaching a temporally morality here.

Jesus taught the same
Luk 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Gal_3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

This faith is a gift 

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

There is no salvation without repentance Donald.

Please See Ethics and Eschatology,Ethics and Universalism by Don K. Preston for a more detailed article against Universalism

You should also read What is the difference between full and hyper-preterism? 
response by Ward Fenley

Hi John:

Thanks for the links. I will read them. I have a lot of respect for Don Preston except that I don't think he goes far enough. Don is a former Chruch of Christ minister. I attend a church of Christ also. Their idea is to restore the "pattern" established by the first century church. In our tradition this wasn't restored until Alexander Cambell in 1830. They are real sticklers for following the pattern or you don't go to heaven. For example, if your not baptized your not qualified.

   If the pattern was lost until 1830, my question is what happened to all the people from the first century until 1830. Were they responsible? Because the only thing that existed was the catholic church and there was no printing press and no one could read. Under this theory almost everyone from the first century on until 1830 when the pattern was restored would go to hell. I asked about this at my church and they said, "of course, most people are going to hell". Hardly, the values of a compassionate God who planned everything before the world began and wishes that no one would perish. Do you have an answer for this.



My next question would be about 1Co 15:22.Is this physical death?

IMO its about spritual death,the referance to adam is not about all of humanity.

Its about a people who based their righteousness on works which only brings about self righteousness.

 Arent there still people who practice the old covenant system today?

 Are they  still in Adam,if they do?

                 Let me know your thought's plz

The work around for this verse: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" is usually that only those "in Christ" are saved. Note the passage doesn't say "all who are in Christ shall be made alive", the phrase "in Christ" is descriptive of "all" that die in Adam. That is everyone!. If all die in Adam then all are made alive by the faith of Christ who was the one seed to which the promise of righteousness was made. The promise of righteousness by faith was not made to seeds, as of many but of one, which is Christ. So who was in Christ when he died on the cross? Everyone! He drew all men unto himself and paid the price of sin for everyman. Anything else would be self-righteous works on our part.

  That's how I see it. I think mankind today is still trying to find some way to justify that they earned their salvation (through their own faith) when this is the opposite of the the story. It says, "the life I now live I live by the "faith of Christ".


  I dont believe Adam was the first human,so I assume I have a different perspective.

  To me Adam was the first to be in covenant with God.The death spoken of in the

  verse has to be spritual to me,not physical.Adam represents old covenant Isreal.

  Christ represents new covenant Isreal.Not every human was part of God's  chosen people(old Isreal).Nor is every human a part of Christ's body(new Isreal).

  So to me being born physically doesnt carry any weight on the subject matter.One must be born spiritually from above.

1Co 15:23  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 Why would Paul say this if verse 22 included everyone,what would be the point?

                Just some more thoughts


I was raised in the churches of Christ and am 5th generation going back to about 1840 or so. I am a former minister in the CoC. I have uncles, grandpas and a dad who are/were either elders of preachers in the CoC. I have studied church history well including that of the Restoration Movement. Yes, many today in the CoC have the attitudes you describe. But it was not that way in the beginning. In fact, the plea of Campbell and Stone was "Christians only, but not the only Christians." They mainly saw the problem of creeds as being divisive and humanly inspired and that they were a divergence from the biblical text, so they wanted to pursue the "ancient order" to help unify ALL believers in Christ, not further divide into a legalistic sect (which it practically has become today). Not all CoC's or members of CoC's are what you describe above. In fact, I attend and teach at a very progressive CoC where I am accepted despite being a preterist, covenant creationist, don't believe in baptism, believe in expanding women's roles in the church, and teach theistic evolutionists should be fellowshipped and the belief should be studied. Hard to fit that attitude with what you described above. Not only that but I know Don Preston personally, and while we all still carry some baggage from our past, Don is an honest man who has abandoned a ton of traditional CoC baggage and will deal honestly with any lingering CoC presuppositions. I know he personally is wrestling with the issue of water baptism. He is adopting a Berean attitude on the matter and continuing to study and is willing to change his mind. We should have grace for all believers of all denominations as we invite them to drink the healing waters of the New Jerusalem that have been in front of them all along :)

Regarding did the church continue post AD70, it seems to be that is the whole point of Rev 21-22, for the New Jerusalem to be open continually to offer healing to the nations. Church (the assembly) should not be primarily about building up ourselves or worshiping God, though those things are nice and good, but should be about being priests of God to those who are outside the covenant, inviting them to come in. That happens best when the "church" (called out ones) is a relational church, not an institutional church.

But you can't argue that just because one sectarian group of people think there hasn't been the true church from the second century until 1830 that it means that the church didn't continue post-AD70. It just shows what happens when a group of people put themselves under a yoke of law and self-righteousness (i.e. the fleshly mode of existence). The sad truth is, folks who make such claims are just like the Pharisees and are not actually residing with Jesus in the NH&E.




I can only take my cofC Heritage back to the Civil War era but it could have possibly been further. I echo Jerel's thoughts especially since I serve as an elder in a large (1400 members) progressive cofC and I embrace all of the aspects that Jerel does except I am a Theistic Evolutionist. :)

I actually think we had too many uneducated farmers trying to be theologians and they were all over the map during the past 150 years in the churches of Christ. A lot of cleaning up is going on but it takes time. But I shouldn't just pick on the cofC folks either. 

However I too look to the first century for patterns such as fulfilled eschatology and other issues as well. I also think the church has existed since Adam but it was in a fallen state until Christ the last Adam redeemed it and changed it in a twinkling of an eye. 

But no the church wasn't lost until our fellow cofC forerunners came along. If you find folks who still hang on to that just wait about 10 or 20 more years and they and their mindset will have essentially disappeared.




  Have often wondered where you might be.Have always enjoyed your input here.

                                God bless Ya

I've been called to go to the Gentiles (Futurist ;) in other forums to spread the good news. I still pop my head in occaisonaly to see what's being discussed.

Hi Norm.

Are you familiar with Sunset school of the Bible. I think it is a Church of Christ organization. I am taking a correspondence course from them now and they claim that everything they teach is from the Bible and  a pattern established in the first century church. It doesn't appear that they have changed at all since 1830. Do you know anything about this group.




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