Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

How were other nations judged at the parousia? It easy to see how Jerusalem was judged, what of other nations?


In particular 2 Thes 1:7 talks about those who troubled the Thessalonians being punished. In first Thessalonians Paul says it was their countrymen (not Jews) who troubled them. How then were they given tribulation at the parousia and how were the Thessalonians given rest?

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Good morning,

"The nations" is an Old Covenant Scriptural term. It refers to the Jews and Israelites, respectively.

There was only one nation until the Israelites split into 2 Kingdoms. Once the holy people split, there became 2 nations, i.e. the Northern and Southern tribes. The 2 Southern tribes of Judea (called Jews) and the 10 Northern tribes of Israel (called the house of Israel) are the focal point of redemptive history.

When the 10 Northern tribes left Israel, they dispersed among the pagan nations and became inculcated with their doctrines and myths. They commingled God's Law covenant with pagan beliefs. In fact, they became so immersed in the pagan cultures that they were called "gentiles" (goyim) in the Old Covenant Scriptures.

Ezekiel 36-37 is critical to a proper understanding of these "nations" being called back in as children. Hosea tells this story alongside Ezekiel 36-37. The prodigal son is the New Covenant Scripture analogy of this fulfillment.

During the last days, the Jews (2 Southern tribes - who were already in Jerusalem) saw the influx of the "goyim" (10 Northern tribes) during the festivities. In this way, the whole "house of Israel" (all the nations) began to undergo God's covenant judgment.

Part and parcel of this reality was the non Israelite Gentiles (pagans) coming to faith in God; a part of redemptive history also. Although covenant judgment had nothing to do with them.

Dustin...

Hello Dustin. You have a good understanding of the 'House of Israel; and the 'House of Judah' split. But also consider that each 'Tribe' (12) was also 'a' nation. Ephraim and Manasseh had The 'Birthright' and I have never found in Scripture where they lost it. Yes, they and the Northern Tribes were 'swept' away and became 'as' Gentiles. But the Covenantal Promises were given to the 'Whole House' of Israel. You called the Northern 'lost' House as 'goyim'. in the Strongs Concordance, the term for 'Gentiles' also can be applied to descendants of Abraham. When we look at Revelation and the 144,000. Each 'tribe' brought into the 'New Covenant' 12,000. But the tribe of Dan, who completely lost any transition covenantal rights because of the evilness of the tribe. Joseph was given a double portion for his sons, Ephraim (the younger son, but leader tribes of the Northern House of Israel) and Manasseh, the older son, but who came in second in the Blessing line).

In referring to 2 Thess. 1-7, those, I believe were 'Messianic Jews', who were trying to make the Thess. keep the whole Law + Jesus Christ. 'Gentiles' and the 'lost' ten Northern tribes need not and could not come under 'the Law of Moses' as it was the Law of Death. Messianic Jews had to keep the Whole Law (or none at all) until Heaven and Earth passed away, and as long as the Temple stood, it had Standing for the House of Judah.

Les,

I agree. And that was my point regarding the whole house of Israel (2 tribes, respectively) in that they were all nations. Apparently I didn't convey it well enough.

Be that as it may, the covenant judgment and the "nations" has to do with the whole house of Israel - not the non Israelite Gentiles.

Dustin...

Hi Les!  And greetings to all of you.  I've been here before but I couldn't remember my old user-name and login credentials.  So I just created a new one.

Before I can answer or respond to the original discussion board post, I first have a simple question.

Do biological Jews even exist today after 2,000 years of outer-bloodline marriages?  And since the biological identification of the Tribes from the first century, onto today, all of which was governed under the "old/first covenant", do Jews (or The House of Israel) even exist today?  If so, how can this be proved?

It seems to me the entire Zionist movement is centered in European Anglo-Saxon whites claiming to be Jewish.  When according to my understanding of the New Testament (since the Old Testament doesn't refer to anyone as being a Jew), the term Judean was only applied to those who were born in Judah or Jerusalem.  In fact, I've read somewhere that there really is no such thing as the noun, "Jew".  Is this true?

Do biological Jews even exist today?  Or has the 2,000 year so-called, "Dispora" contaminated them through interracial marriages.  Modern day Talmudic Jews (a false form of Judaism) claims that only the mother can pass on Jewish kindred's.  However, it is my strongest opinion that this is in error.

Jacob and Esau had the same biological mother, yet only Jacob was accepted and was awarded the promise.  Esau, being a biological child, was not given the blessings of the promised "seed", aka the future Christ.  Knowing this, how then do Talmudic Rabbi's claim that only the mother can birth Jews, and not the father?

We know that the term "Jew" applied today is a misidentification of the term since this only referred to those born in Judah or Jerusalem.  I believe when Paul speaks to the Roman's about "Jews", I have to check, but I believe the actual noun he used was, "Judean".  And that "Jew" was an English rendering of a Judean.

Scripturally, under the New Covenant Age, it is my understanding that anyone outside of Christ is considered an uncircumcised gentile, just as Paul says, "If a Jew who has the law, violates the law, his circumcision has become un-circumcision".  And since circumcision under the old covenant marked the new born as a Judean, through the sign of the covenant, being a violator of the law at any point spiritually deems the law breaker as an un-circumcised goy.

And weren't ancient records kept at the temple prior to 70AD, to prove the ancestry of all the different tribes? 

Joe

 

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