Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Six Zealot Leaders and Four Edomite Leaders

Six Zealot Leaders and Four Edomite Leaders

Revelation 17

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Six Zealot Commanders :
1 Simon bar Giora
2 Menahem ben Judah
3 John of Giscala
4 Eleazar ben Hanania
5 Eleazar ben Simon
6 Eleazar ben Yair

Four Edomite Commanders:
7 John
8 Jacob ben Sosa
9 Simon ben Cathlas
10 Phineas ben Clusothus

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Despite early successes in repelling the Roman sieges, the Zealots fought amongst themselves, and they lacked proper leadership, resulting in poor discipline, training, and preparation for the battles that were to follow. At one point they destroyed the food stocks in the city, a drastic measure thought to have been undertaken perhaps in order to enlist a merciful God's intervention on behalf of the besieged Jews.

The Jewish defenders were split into factions: John of Gischala's group murdered another faction leader, Eleazar ben Simon, whose men were entrenched in the forecourts of the Temple. The enmities between John of Gischala and Simon bar Giora were papered over only when the Roman siege engineers began to erect ramparts.

The account of Josephus described Titus as moderate in his approach and, after conferring with others, ordering that the 500-year-old Temple be spared. According to Josephus, it was the Jews who first used fire in the Northwest approach to the Temple to try and stop Roman advances. Only then did Roman soldiers set fire to an apartment adjacent to the Temple, a conflagration which the Jews subsequently made worse.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Earth = Judea.
Kings of the Earth = The chief priests, the elders, the scribes and the Pharisees who sit in Moses’ seat (Matthew 23). The seat of the beast (Revelation 16:10).

Source :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(AD_70)

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Comment by Stairway To Heaven on August 16, 2017 at 11:18pm

I interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened in the 2nd century BC, while seeing the prophecies of Revelation of John as events that happened in the first century AD.

The imagery of Daniel 7 comes ultimately from the Canaanite myth of Ba?al's battle with Yamm (lit. "Sea"), symbolic of chaos.[17] The four beasts are chaos monsters[17] which appeared as serpents in the Ba?al Cycle discovered in the ruins of Ugarit in the 1920s. In Daniel 7, composed sometime before Judas Maccabeus purified the temple in 164 BC, they symbolise Babylon, the Medes, Persia and Greece:[18]

The lion: Babylon. Its transformation into a man reverses Nebuchadnezzar's transformation into a beast in chapter 4, and the "human mind" may reflect his regaining sanity; the "plucked wings" reflect both loss of power and the transformation to a human state.
The bear: the Medes - compare Jeremiah 51:11 on the Medes attacking Babylon.
The leopard: Persia. The four heads may reflect the four Persian kings of Daniel 11:2-7.
The fourth beast: The Greeks and particularly the Seleucids of Syria.

The "ten horns" that appear on the beast stand for the ten Seleucid kings between Seleucus I, the founder of the kingdom, and Antiochus Epiphanes. The "little horn" is Antiochus himself. The "three horns" uprooted by the "little horn" reflect the fact that Antiochus was fourth in line to the throne, and became king after his brother and one of his brother's sons were murdered and the second son exiled to Rome. Antiochus was responsible only for the murder of one of his nephews, but the author of Daniel 7 holds him responsible for all.[19] Anthiochus called himself Theos Epiphanes, "God Manifest", suiting the "arrogant" speech of the little horn.[20]

The identity of the "one like a son of man" who approaches God is Judah Maccabee.

The "holy ones" seems to refer to the persecuted Jews under Antiochus; the "sacred seasons and the law" are the Jewish religious customs disrupted by him; the "time, two times and a half" is approximately the time of the persecution, from 167 to 164 BC, as well as being half the "perfect number" seven.[23]

"Their kingly power is an everlasting power": the hasidim (the sect of "the pious ones"), who produced the Book of Daniel, believed that the restoration of Jewish worship in the temple would usher in the end of the age. The end of Seleucid Age = The end of Seleucid reign over Jerusalem. Jerusalem was ruled by Jewish King and Messiah, Judah Maccabee and the Hasmonean Kingdom, the Kingdom of God in the Book of Daniel.

Source :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_7

Scarlet / Purple = The ephod of the High Priest

Exodus 28
8 And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.

Comment by Patricia Watkins on August 16, 2017 at 11:55pm

Hi STH,

I am not opposed to Revelation including some of Israel's historical details from ancient days, or even those events just prior to first-century Israel's times.  What I can't find when I read Revelation is one long sequence of chronological events from beginning to end of the book, as your list seems to show.

Revelation repeats several parallel accounts of the same historical period, especially when it comes to the 7 judgments of seals, trumpets, and vials.  We have these same types of parallel accounts given to us in the gospels.  Each gospel account covers the period of Christ's ministry, but with varied viewpoints.  Some have stories that the other gospels don't include, as well as some duplicating overlaps - only covered from a different angle.  Just so in the way Revelation is presented.

However, I can't see how the Bar Kokhba Revolt episode can be included as part of Revelation's unsealed words of prophecy, because ALL of Revelation's prophecies were included within a fulfillment that was "AT HAND" (as Rev. 22:10 says).  This would exclude the Bar Kokhba event, or even the fall of Masada, as those had no spiritual or symbolic significance, once the heart of Jerusalem had been torn out and destroyed (i.e., the temple and its priesthood, as well as any genealogical record of the tribes). 

I am in sync with you when you get to Revelation 12, which you connected with the first coming of Christ and the era surrounding it.  That whole description of Satan / the Dragon cast out of heaven to the earth was anchored to the time when Christ ascended in AD 33.  The dragon's persecution of the Woman was the persecution springing up against the church in Jerusalem the very day Stephen was stoned.  For 3 1/2 years, this persecution was waged by the Jews (and Saul) against the Woman - which was compared to a "flood" that was cast out of the serpent's mouth. 

Upon Saul's radical conversion, this "flood" of persecution was "swallowed up", and as Acts 9:31 said, "Then had the churches rest throughout all  Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied." 

This caused the Dragon great wrath, and it says he went to make war with the "remnant" of the Woman's seed.  This "remnant" I believe to be the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints - the same as the "remnant of the dead" in Rev. 20:5, which "lived again" after the First Resurrection of Christ in AD 33.  These Firstfruits, resurrected saints coming from the Jewish tribes (all 144,000 of them) were the "multitude of captives" brought up from the grave with the risen Christ, who were then given as "gifts" to men (Ephesians 4:8).  They remained as evangelistic laborers among the early church until AD 70,  when those "living and remaining" saints were "raptured" as Paul in I Thess. 4:15, 17 describes for us.  Paul said that the church still had these Firstfruits  saints among them in Romans 8:23, so apparently they never left the planet. 

Probably you would not approve  of any of these details listed above, but at least the timespan on the calendar that Revelation covers we can agree on.

I am also in sync with you on Revelation 16: these definitely are a list of incidents spanning the Great Tribulation period, probably from the AD 66 year until AD 70.  The majority of these were concentrated on the location of Israel, but not all, because ethnic Israelites were scattered all over the Roman empire.  Consequently, judgment on that "evil generation"  of necessity would have followed them into those locations as well. 

For example, the Rev. 13:2 location of the "Seat" given to the Sea Beast by the Dragon was in ASIA - Pergamos to be exact - because the SEAT OF THE DRAGON / SATAN  (Revelation 13:2 cp. Rev. 2:13) which was at Pergamos, had been given to Rome, (the Sea Beast), in 132 BC as a last bequest by the dying king Attalus III of the Pergamum kingdom. 

I may not be understanding you correctly, but it appears you equate Annas, the high priest appointed by Rome in AD 6, as being the Sea Beast itself?  I do see a collusion between Rome as the Sea Beast, and the Land Beast composed of the 2-horned Sadducee and Pharisee party combination.  This is pictured in Daniel's statue as the mixture of iron and clay in the feet of the image - just after the section composed of iron alone.   Time-wise, Rome (represented by the iron element) had existed as an empire in its own right for some time (represented by the length of the statue's iron legs) before the formerly-independent Judea (represented by the clay) subjected itself under Roman power. This subjugation was owing to Herod's fawning attention to the Roman authorities.  Herod as a client-king under Rome's authority, combined with the bought-and-paid-for cooperation of the high priesthood, forced Israel into an unholy alliance of clay with iron. 

This blend never did congeal.  Clay was always associated with Israel as God's people in the O.T.  (Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O Lord, thou art our Father; We are the CLAY, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand.")  Having Rome supervising the appointment and tenure of Israel's high priesthood created an upside-down relationship where a political Jerusalem "reigned over the kings / high priests of the earth" (Revelation 17:18).   This was opposed to Israel's original, theocratic, God-ordained arrangement from OT times.  Hostilities between these two disparate elements of the iron (Roman Beast) and the clay (Land Beast) were bound to erupt, sooner or later, with explosive results.

At least, that's how I see it playing out.

 

Comment by Stairway To Heaven on August 17, 2017 at 3:25am

Three and a Half Years Ministry of Jesus

Revelation 12

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Woman = Jesus Christ
Twelve Stars = The Twelve Apostles
Child = The Church (Disciples of Jesus)

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

42 months = 3.5 years
Overview
The gospel accounts place the beginning of Jesus' ministry in the countryside of Roman Judea, near the River Jordan.[1]

The gospels present John the Baptist's ministry as the precursor to that of Jesus and the Baptism of Jesus as marking the beginning of Jesus' ministry, after which Jesus travels, preaches and performs miracles.[1][21][22]

Jesus's Baptism is generally considered the beginning of his ministry and the Last Supper with his disciples in Jerusalem as the end.

Luke 3:23 states that Jesus was "about 30 years of age" at the start of his ministry.[2][3] There have been different approaches to estimating the date of the start of the ministry of Jesus. One approach, based on combining information from the Gospel of Luke with historical data about Emperor Tiberius yields a date around 28-29 AD/CE, while a second independent approach based on statements in the Gospel of John along with historical information from Josephus about the Temple in Jerusalem leads to a date around AD 27–29.

In the New Testament, the date of the Last Supper is very close to the date of the crucifixion of Jesus (hence its name). Scholarly estimates for the date of the crucifixion generally fall in the range AD 30-36.[29][30]

The three Synoptic Gospels refer to just one passover during his ministry, while the Gospel of John refers to three passovers, suggesting a period of about three and a half years.[21][31] However, the Synoptic gospels do not require a ministry that lasted only one year, and scholars such as Köstenberger state that the Gospel of John simply provides a more detailed account.[21][22][32]

During the ministry of Jesus, the tetrarch ruling over Galilee and Perea in this period was Herod Antipas, who obtained the position upon the division of the territories following the death of Herod the Great in 4 BC.[33]

Wilderness = Galilee
Early Galilean ministry
The Early Galilean ministry begins when Jesus goes back to Galilee from the Judean desert, after rebuffing the temptation of Satan.[6] In this early period, Jesus preaches around Galilee and, in Matthew 4:18-20, his first disciples encounter him, begin to travel with him and eventually form the core of the early Church.

Later Judean ministry
In this period, Jesus starts his final journey to Jerusalem by going around Samaria, through Perea and on through Judea to Jerusalem. At the beginning of this period, Jesus predicts his death for the first time, and this prediction then builds up to the other two episodes, the final prediction being just before Jesus enters Jerusalem for the last time, the week of his crucifixion.[80][81] In Matthew 16:21–28 and Mark 8:31–33, Jesus teaches his disciples that "the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

Later in this period, at about the middle of each of the three Synoptic Gospels, two related episodes mark a turning point in the ministry of Jesus: the Confession of Peter and the Transfiguration of Jesus.[12][13][14][15] These episodes begin in Caesarea Philippi, just north of the Sea of Galilee, at the beginning of the final journey to Jerusalem which ends in the Passion and Resurrection of Jesus.[83] These episodes mark the beginnings of the gradual disclosure of the identity of Jesus as the Messiah to his disciples; and his prediction of his own suffering and death.[12][13][83][84][85]

Final ministry in Jerusalem
The final ministry in Jerusalem is traditionally called the Passion and begins with Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem early in the week that includes the Last Supper, and liturgically marked by Holy Week. The gospels pay special attention to the account of the last week of the life of Jesus in Jerusalem, and the narrative amounts to about one third of the text of the four gospels, showing its theological significance in Christian thought in the Early Church.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Woman = Jesus Christ
Her Seed = The Church (Disciples of Jesus)

Source :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Jesus

Comment by Patricia Watkins on August 18, 2017 at 4:01pm
Hi I.T. Guy,

Working on some solid answers to your August 10 critique...as usual, a bit on the long-winded side again...sorry...
Comment by Patricia Watkins on August 23, 2017 at 8:39pm

Hi I.T. Guy, 

Sorry this is such a delayed response - I've had my hands tied doing nursing care and chauffeur duty lately, and the points in your critique deserved a better reply than just a sound bite.  If you have read what I posted to STH above, I'll just continue in the same vein of the collusion between the (Roman) Sea Beast and the (Judean) Land Beast. 

You say you are "uncomfortable with certain implications of having the Sea Beast be Rome."  Starting with your #1) point: you said "In Revelation, the beasts are never clearly pictured in conflict as Rome was with Jerusalem."  By that, I take it you're suggesting the Beasts never appeared to be in conflict with each other to the same level that Rome was engaged in a war against Jerusalem?  If that's what you meant, I can't agree with that, because the main cause of Israel and Jerusalem's downfall was not so much Rome coming against her, but her internal civil strife which weakened her - the "three parts" she was divided into in Rev. 16:19 (Eleazar, John, and Simon). 

Christ forewarned of this civil strife coming when He gave His discourse to the people concerning His coming in Luke 12:49-53.  "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?  I tell you Nay; but rather division: for from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.  The father shall be divided against the son..." (example: Eleazar the hot-headed temple governor started the rebellion against the opposing wishes of his high priest father Ananus, who wanted peace with Rome.)  It was the "house divided AGAINST ITSELF" which would not stand, as Christ foretold. 

That meant that the Judean Land Beast (the "clay" that aligned itself with the "iron" Roman Sea Beast) would be opposed by the Zealot elements which were part of the Judean Scarlet Beast's 10 horns who ended up "hating the whore", in Rev. 17:16.  This whore (Jerusalem, as controlled by Roman-backed sympathizers) was made desolate and naked, her flesh eaten, and eventually burned by the Zealot factions themselves as they battled each other for the supremacy (the grain supplies and other structures going up in flames while under Zealot control).  These actions were suicidal, since a nation plagued with demon-possession 7 times more than before would, of course, commit such suicidal actions. 

In your #2) and #3) points, you are questioning just how a collaboration between the Sea Beast and the Land Beast (the false prophet) could have enforced the homage of that Sea Beast's image by anyone.  To answer that, I would have to be able to define the image and the mark of the Sea Beast.  I believe it was the Tyrian silver shekel coin that answers both of these questions.  As I have already done, I would encourage you to do some research yourself on this very unique coin and its origin.  In short, it was a coin highly prized for its consistently high silver content.  For that very reason, the priesthood demanded that this coin be the only one accepted for all temple transactions (paying for sacrificial animals, etc., but ESPECIALLY the annual Temple Tax expected from every Israelite male over 20).  This is why we have the "moneychangers" in the Temple doing a brisk business with the small exchange fee charged per transaction. 

These coins, the Tyrian Shekel and the 1/2 shekel, should NEVER have been allowed into the temple because of the pagan image of the demi-god Hercules/Herakles on the front, which was an abomination to God from the days of the OT.  In those ancient days, God had forewarned the Israelites not to take unto themselves the silver and gold that was connected with the idol worship in the nations of Canaan, (a warning that Achan ignored and consequently was stoned for disobeying).  Deut. 7:25 gave God's mind on this matter: "The graven images of their gods" (the gods of Canaan) "shall ye burn with fire: THOU SHALT NOT DESIRE THE SILVER OR GOLD THAT IS ON THEM, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein; for it is an ABOMINATION to the Lord thy God."  They were to "utterly abhor " this ABOMINATION as a "cursed thing" and were not to take it into their houses, let alone the house of God - the tabernacle or the temple.

Yet by the time we reach Christ's days on earth, this pagan abominable Tyrian shekel was not only permitted, but REQUIRED for all Temple transactions.  No one could buy or sell sacrifices for the Temple (sound familiar?) without this coin, just as Rev. 13:17 says.  To make things worse, this Tyrian shekel coin had the Roman eagle on the obverse side, with the initials "KP" stamped beside it.  This stood for "Kratos Romaion", or "POWER OF THE ROMANS".  Every time an Israelite male paid his annual Temple Tax, he was reminded once again of just who held the reins of power over Jerusalem and the temple. 

To add insult to injury, he also had to pay a surcharge of 11 prutot coins to the money exchanger for the "privilege" of using a coin that reminded him of the collusion between the priesthood (the Land Beast) and the (Roman) Sea Beast, and his own subjugation to that Roman authority. 

Actually, it wasn't so much ROME that demanded this homage; it was the Sadducee/Pharisee power structure working hand-in-glove with the Romans who demanded this homage be paid to Rome by their own people.  They knew that the only way to keep the money flowing into their own coffers was to keep as peaceful a relationship as possible with Rome.  It's the old, old story - FOLLOW THE MONEY.

The penalty put upon those in Israel by the 2-horned Pharisee/Sadducee Land Beast for not cooperating with their system was to be cast out of the temple - they were put under a BAN - and were shunned by their fellow Jews.  For fear of the Jews' ban, Nicodemus came by night to Jesus.  For fear of the Jews, Joseph of Arimathea came secretly to Pilate to beg for Jesus' body (John 19:38).  For fear of the Jews, the parents of the blind man couldn't admit publicly that Jesus had healed their son (John 9:22).  For fear of the Jews, many of the chief rulers who believed on Jesus did not publicly profess this belief (John 12:42). 

This ban was apparently the equivalent of a death sentence to an Israelite, as Christ admitted in John 16:2.  "They shall put you out of the synagogues; yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."  He puts the severity of this ban on a par with being killed here.

This heavy-handed treatment by the 2-horned Land Beast of Pharisee and Sadducee parties was summed up in Rev. 13:15 where it says that the Land Beast would cause those to be killed who did not cooperate with giving homage to the (Roman) Sea Beast along with them.  They spoke deceptively (like the Dragon/Satan), as Christ accused them several times of being liars like their father the Devil (John 8:44,55). 

According to Rev. 13:12, this Land Beast "exerciseth all the power of the first beast BEFORE HIM" (before his face, or in the presence of the Roman Sea Beast, that is).  In other words, the Pharisees and Sadducees were given delegated powers by Roman authority to collect taxes, make certain judicial decisions, etc. concerning their own people.  (Think of the despised "publicans" being used, such as Matthew the publican.)  And they did this in the presence of the Roman troops and power structure that remained in Jerusalem and Judea to keep order, just as Rev. 13:12 describes.

In your point #4), you state that you can't see Rome partaking of God's wrath.  This one is easy to address.  Remember Jesus standing before Pilate, saying, "He that delivered me unto thee hath the GREATER SIN."  In other words, the guilt of the Jewish leadership and the people for traitorously betraying their own Savior who walked their streets required the GREATER penalty of vengeance for their sin in rejecting their own Messiah.  But a GREATER SIN implies a LESSER SIN also being committed - that of the Romans being the physical tool who did the actual crucifying, as well as the persecution of the saints later on during Nero's reign; especially during those 3 1/2 years after Rome's fire in AD 64, when the Sea Beast's little horn/Nero was allowed to make war against the saints and overcome them (or prevail against them - Rev. 13:7 and Daniel 7:21,25). 

If it were only Judea and Jerusalem which were to experience God's wrath, then why do we have Paul warning the Athenians on Mars Hill in Acts 17:31 that all men everywhere should repent?  The reason was that "He hath appointed a day in the which He is about to judge the world" (oikoumenen - not ge for the land of Israel) "in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained..."  Gentile AND Jew AND Christian experienced God's purging / destroying / or refining fire in those days. 

Peter had once said in I Peter 4:17, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God" (in the church) "and if it FIRST begin at US, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (Judaizers)  "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly" (unbelieving Jews) "and the sinner appear?" (Gentiles)  None of these three groups would emerge unscathed from the traumatic events at the end of the OC age. 

Revelation 3:10 (YLT) also testified to this rather universal coverage with disasters when it promised that the church of Philadelphia would be kept from "the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world (oikoumenes) to try those dwelling upon the earth."  It's true, the lion's share  of judgment fell on Israel in vengeance for the blood of the righteous ones slain, but that did not mean the other two groups were unaffected.

In your point #5), the "overcoming the beast's mark" for the victorious ones meant that they didn't fall into the trap of thinking that Rome's favor was credited for their obtaining and preserving a physical kingdom on earth, as the Pharisees and Sadducees thought.  Preserving the temple and its Levitical priesthood under a favored Roman religio licita was not the means God was going to use to set up or maintain His kingdom.  Neither was their hope lying in setting up an independent nation of Israel after conquering the Romans, as the Zealots (from the Scarlet Beast) vainly imagined.  Those who did not adopt either of these vain hopes, but who remained faithful to the Savior's teaching regarding the true kingdom, were the ones who overcame the mark.

In your point #6), I agree that the wrath of God's vengeance poured out on JERUSALEM is for the innocent blood shed from Abel to Zechariah.  This is the blood of those souls under the altar in Rev. 6:9-11, crying out "How long, O Lord" until they were avenged.  Any who were martyred as children of faith throughout the OT were included in this group, since ALL the martyred children of faith could be said to be IN CHRIST as represented by Him.  If Jerusalem and her leadership were guilty of killing Christ, then they were also guilty of killing everyone whom He represented.  The murder of an ambassador is always tantamount to mortally offending all his countrymen as well. 

However, this martyred group of souls under the altar were not going to be the only group that would be persecuted.  There were other "fellow-servants and brethren" that were "ABOUT TO" experience the same type of martyrdom during the "little season" when Satan was loosed (Rev. 6:11 - Interlinear cp Rev. 20:3).  These OTHERS would have been those martyred during the persecution after AD 34, when Stephen was stoned, on through the tribulation period when Antipas was slain, which started up for Christians in Asia after the Ephesian riot in AD 59.  The last persecution period involved the purge of the Christians under Nero's hand after the fire in Rome (AD 64) until his death.  All these "fellow-servants" would be slain, just as the group of martyred souls under the altar had been.  It was as Christ had foretold His disciples in Matthew 10:22; they would be "hated by all men" for His name's sake; by the Jews, the Gentiles, and also by those who departed from the faith and did not stay faithful to Christ. 

Next, for your last point #7), you say that you only see the Jews having the label of "satan" in the New Testament.  I can't agree with that, because the name of the Dragon in Rev. 12:9 is equated with "That Old Serpent, called the Devil AND Satan which deceiveth the whole world".  This Serpent/Devil/Satan/Dragon had angels who fought against Michael and his angels IN HEAVEN - a realm he was cast out of after Christ's ascension.  I don't think there's any way to confuse this Satan/Dragon with the other satans, who were Jewish opponents of the gospel on earth.

This "seat" given to the (Roman) Sea Beast in Rev. 13:2 originally belonged to the DRAGON/Satan.  This property of the DRAGON/Satan was first introduced to us as being in the location of the city of Pergamos (Rev. 2:13).  I don't ever read of any thing in Pergamos being given to the Jews, but I do read of this entire kingdom of Pergamum being given to ROME back in 132 BC by Attalus III as a dying bequest. 

Once this "seat" of the Dragon/Satan in Pergamos in Rev. 2:13 had been given to the (Roman) Sea Beast as of Rev. 13:2, we are again shown this "seat" of the Beast (in Pergamos) in Rev. 16:10.  Here, this "seat" has the 5th vial of judgment poured out on it, (in Pergamos), and as a result, the location of that "kingdom was darkened".  I take that to mean that ASIA, where Pergamos was located, became darkened.  Sure enough, in the New Testament, we read in II Timothy 1:15 where Paul says that "...ALL THEY WHICH ARE IN ASIA BE TURNED AWAY FROM ME..."  This was massive defection in the churches of Asia, which territory had once been universally covered by contact with Paul's teaching (Acts 19:10), both Jews and Greeks. 

Five out of seven churches in Asia were reproved and told to repent (Rev. 2:5,16,22, 3:3,9).  They must not have done so (as of AD 59/60 when Revelation was written), or Paul would not have said that ALL ASIA was turned away from him (as of AD 67 when II Timothy was written).  This was the prophesied "darkening" of the (Roman) Sea Beast's kingdom (Rev. 16:10) and its "seat" in Pergamos, which had been given to it earlier by the Dragon/Satan.

Well, I.T. Guy, that's your 7 last points covered as best I can.  I've gone through the first part of your comment where you discussed the link between Daniel 7's fourth beast and Rev. 13.  They are indeed the same.  Except I still see the 10 horns on that fourth beast as the 10 emperors of Rome.  The body of the beast that was destroyed was the Julio-Claudian dynasty (which was replaced by the Flavian dynasty), but the "burning flame" it was given to in Daniel 7:11 is never said to be the Lake of Fire.  It is the "fiery flame" from God's throne and the "fiery stream" issuing from before Him in the same context of Daniel 7:9-10 to which the Julio-Claudian dynasty is given and "destroyed utterly" (Daniel 7:26).  Once Nero died without an heir and his Julio-Claudian dynasty disappeared, the Flavian dynasty under Vespasian then became the Sea Beast which God would use as "His armies" - an avenging tool to accomplish the final demolition of Jerusalem. 

You say that you find it hard to see a connection between the mouth of the Sea Beast speaking against God in Rev. 13 and then being called the "armies of heaven" in Rev. 19.  They really aren't the same.  The "mouth of a lion" on the Sea Beast in Rev. 13:2,5,6 I believe is the same "mouth of the lion" that Paul was delivered from in II Timothy 4:17, when his first arrest and release under Nero took place.  In other words, this Rev. 13 Sea Beast I still see to be Roman.

As for the "armies" in Rev. 19:14, I think that quite probably those "armies" in heaven following Christ are angelic ones clothed in white linen (as the 7 angels were in Rev. 15:6).  We are told in Jude 14 that Enoch prophesied that the Lord would come with 10,000 of His holy ones (angels - not the souls of departed saints or of living human armies) to execute judgment upon all.  I don't equate the troops of the (Roman) Sea Beast in Rev. 13 with the heavenly armies in Rev. 19 at all.  Totally different.

Next, you say that you believe the Scarlet Beast is FIRST mentioned in Rev. 11:7.  Try a little earlier than that.  I see both the Scarlet Beast and the Land Beast (both Judean in origin) mentioned first in Rev. 6:8 (YLT).  "And I saw, and lo, a pale horse, and he who is sitting upon him - his name is Death, and Hades doth follow with him, and there was given to them authority to kill, (over the fourth part of the land), with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and BY THE BEASTS OF THE LAND." 

This doesn't emphasize the Sea Beast doing any of this killing of the fourth part of the land, because the major cause of death coming upon the citizens of the land of Israel was the CIVIL STRIFE which came from the internal factions bringing disaster upon their own people.  Brother against brother, son against father, etc., just as Christ had promised would come in Luke 12:52.  The chief agents by which all these calamities would come from were the Land Beast and the Scarlet Beast that arose from within Israel itself, as Rev. 6:8 seems to indicate.

Next, I'll offer another plausible definition of the Scarlet Beast who WAS, IS NOT, and YET IS, who killed the 2 Witnesses.  Actually, I prefer this idea instead of having the House of Annas being the definition of the Scarlet Beast, although the House of Annas is still featured as the 7-8 kings part of that Scarlet Beast.  I'm giving you an option here.

We know that an independent nation of Israel existed for almost 80 years from 142 BC, after the Maccabean's hard-won victories earned their independence from Antiochus Epiphanes' cruel reign.  This independent nation of Israel could have represented the Scarlet Beast that once WAS in existence as John was writing.  Later, when Israel had been incorporated into the Roman republic in 63 BC by Pompey, that independent nation of Israel then WAS NOT in existence anymore, especially after Herod was appointed king by the Roman Senate in 40 BC.  Then, once Zealot activity under Eleazar cast off the daily sacrifice for the Romans in AD 66, in an act of open rebellion against Rome, it could be said that the independent nation of Israel IS in existence again at that point.

As proof of becoming a sovereign nation at that point, Israel started minting coins of her own in Jerusalem, dated AD 66, illustrating their independence from Roman control.  All in the earth who were not party of God's book of life would marvel, or wonder, to see this independent nation of Israel in Jerusalem once again re-emerging without a foreign nation in Jerusalem reigning over its high priest/kings of the earth.  This reinstated independent nation of Israel (however temporary) would represent the Scarlet Beast who was "ABOUT TO COME UP out of the bottomless pit (a state of death, as defined by Romans 10:7).  She was also ABOUT TO GO INTO DESTRUCTION, (Rev. 17:18), since AD 70 would completely crush Jerusalem - the heart and soul of the nation - and put it back under Roman governance again.  This independent nation of Israel that WAS in existence after the Maccabean victories, and IS NOT in existence as John wrote Revelation (because it was under Roman governance then) was going to re-emerge with an 8th king (Mattathias, the high priest in AD 65-66), who was OF THE SEVEN KINGS, (because he was the grandson of Annas, the high priest).  As part of the civil conflict, this Scarlet Beast actually killed two of its own, the 2 former high priests Ananus son of Annas, and Joshua ben Gamaliel, who were the TWO WITNESSES of Rev. 11.  Their offense against the Zealots was simply being leaders of the moderate party who preferred peace with Rome so that the temple and its priesthood could be maintained. 

These two men represented the last remaining members of the formerly-approved Zadok priesthood (they were both of the Sadducee party - derived from the Zadok name).  God was wiping out the Zadok priesthood with the death of the Two Witnesses, Ananus and Joshua, because God had already set up the ultimate high priesthood under Christ, after the different order of Melchisedec. 

Since the Jews, as a whole were clinging to the old priesthood and refusing to acknowledge Christ as this ultimate high priest with an endless life, the Zadok priesthood had to be destroyed, one man after another, until there were none left to offer a feeble competition for Christ, the King of Kings, or High Priest of all High Priests.  This fulfilled Zechariah 13:2, when God caused the prophets (such as the Two Witnesses who prophesied) to "pass out of the land". 

It also fulfilled Zechariah 13:7 LXX.  "Awake, O sword against MY SHEPHERDS (the high priests) and against the man who is my citizen, saith the Lord Almighty: SMITE THE SHEPHERDS, and draw out the sheep: and I will bring mine hand upon the LITTLE ONES" (the children of the mothers of Jerusalem that Christ told them to weep for, instead of Himself).  According to the point in your critique, I.T. Guy, the Scarlet Beast's war against these Two Witnesses should not be confused with the war against the SAINTS, waged by the (Roman) Sea Beast (a.k.a. the "little horn" on the fourth beast of Daniel 7:21,25).

There you go, I.T. Guy.  I am so sorry for the length of this, but I appreciate you challenging me on the details, because they certainly do make or break the case.  As STH's original point started out, the 10 horns (which were the 10 generals selected in Jerusalem for the war) really did give their power and strength to the Scarlet Beast (the newly-independent nation of Israel in AD 66 Jerusalem) in the vain hope that Jerusalem could defeat Rome, the Sea Beast, and become master of the entire known world.

And if you read all of this, even if you don't agree with it, I give you a gold star!

 

Comment by Internet_Troll on August 29, 2017 at 2:59pm

Have been busy too

but thanks for taking time to respond.

Will read and give my thoughts

Comment by Internet_Troll on September 4, 2017 at 12:32pm

Patricia

Well, I.T. Guy, that's your 7 last points covered as best I can.  I've gone through the first part of your comment where you discussed the link between Daniel 7's fourth beast and Rev. 13.  They are indeed the same.

Thanks for your thoughts. As someone who is still pressed of time I need you to tell me what you find to be the Son of Man coming with clouds to the Ancient of days. For the Son of Man possesses the kingdom as it is taken away from the 4th beast, unless you have a different reading of Daniel.

Comment by Patricia Watkins on September 9, 2017 at 1:22am

Hi again I.T. Guy,

Responding to your inquiry: "I need you to tell me what you find to be the Son of Man coming with clouds to the Ancient of Days".  Here's another river of verbiage for you to wade through, if you have time. 

I have tossed this one back and forth before, but am finally comfortably sure that this Daniel 7:13-14 passage is referring to the day of Christ's resurrection when He first ascended to the Father early that morning, the first day of the week, in order to present His own blood and offer it on the mercy seat in heaven's temple.  This is when He "offered Himself without spot to God", as Hebrews 9:14 expresses it. 

This "offering Himself...to God" is a duplicate of what is going on in Daniel 7:13 when the Son of Man is "brought near" before the Ancient of Days.  Many translations express this phrase as the Son of Man being "presented to the Ancient of Days".  It was the point in time when the high priesthood was conferred upon Christ for our sakes; a change from the Levitical priesthood over to Christ who was made a high priest by God after the order of Melchizedek - with an endless life.

The "New Covenant in His blood" was in place from that point on, and Psalms 2's prophecy was fulfilled, when God set His "king" (His high priest) upon His holy hill of Zion.  This is when God, the Ancient of Days, said to Christ "Thou art my Son; THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE" (which was Resurrection / Ascension Day, according to Acts 13:33).  "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.  Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."   

The heathen as an inheritance were given that day as a sort of "birthday present" to Christ from God His Father.  It would be later on in AD 70 when He would dash the nations in pieces (as pictured by the stone striking the feet of Daniel's image, and breaking it in pieces.  In the meantime, though, the kingdom had been given to Christ on that day when He became God's "First-begotten" - the first one born of a woman to be brought near to the Ancient of Days and stand before Him in a human, incorruptible physical form that could never die again (Romans 6:9).

The "clouds of heaven" that the Son of Man came with on that Resurrection / Ascension Day (as described in Daniel 7:13) were the clouds of the heavenly temple - similar to the same glory clouds that appeared on other occasions in the Old Testament. 

This glory cloud was mentioned when Moses first set up the tabernacle in the wilderness.  In Exodus 40:34-35, in the first day of the first month, the second year they had been in the wilderness, Moses finished the work of the tabernacle and set it up.  "Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.  And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle."  

Leviticus also mentions the glory that filled the tabernacle when Moses consecrated Aaron and his sons to serve as high priest and priests of the tabernacle.  After 7 days of consecration in Leviticus 8:33-35, God announced that He would "appear" before the congregation on the 8th day.  In Leviticus 9:23-24, He did so: "...and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the people.  And there came a fire out from before the Lord, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces."

The mercy seat in particular had the cloud representing God's presence, as found in Leviticus 16:2.  Speaking of the Day of Atonement's activities for the high priest, it says, "And the Lord said unto Moses, speak unto Aaron thy brother that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat."

Again, glory clouds filled the temple at Solomon's dedication ceremony for the temple, during the feast of tabernacles.  I Kings 8:10 says "And it came to pass when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the Lord, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of the Lord."

All these examples show that the "clouds of heaven" have been present at moments of initiating things of great spiritual import regarding the temple and the priesthood.  Christ's first presentation when He became our high priest in heaven before the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:13 is the ultimate moment which all these other events were typifying.

As a brief aside, the same clouds of heaven with the Son of Man sitting on them are present in Revelation 14:14.  This crowned Son of Man (who had received His kingdom on Resurrection / Ascension Day) is told to reap the earth with a sickle, which He does.  I take this moment to be when the resurrected Jesus harvested the Matthew 27:52-53 saints and brought these Firstfruits saints out of the grave with Him at the First Resurrection.  It is the EARTH that is reaped - (ge - in the land of Israel), just as it was graves around JERUSALEM that were opened with the earthquake at Christ's death.  Anyone dying in the Lord from that point onward (after the First Resurrection of Christ the Firstfruits and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints) were blessed, because "their works would follow them" (Revelation 14:13).

You mentioned that you see the Son of Man possessing the kingdom AS IT IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE FOURTH BEAST.  I'm sorry, but I can't find that in the text.  The emphasis is on the SAINTS being given a share in the kingdom that Christ already possessed, which they are given some time later (in AD 70) after the little horn's dominion is taken away (not the Sea Beast's dominion), and he is consumed and destroyed utterly (at Nero's death in AD 68). 

In Daniel 7:22, it is said that the time drew on when the SAINTS possessed the kingdom.  This kingdom is one that Christ had already had given to Him when He ascended that first time to the Father, or He would not have told His disciples during that 40 days He was with them in Matthew 28:18 that "ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME in heaven and in earth."  This is past tense.  As of His Resurrection Day ascension, Christ already had a throne as the King of Kings (meaning High priest of all high priests).  Peter agreed at Pentecost that Christ was already sitting on His throne in fulfillment of David's prophecy (Acts 2:29-36). 

Here is another set of references that convince me that Christ had been given a kingdom before He ascended from the Mount of Olives that final time.  In Luke 22:28-29 (at the Last Supper) Christ told His disciples "Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.  And I APPOINT UNTO YOU A KINGDOM, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." 

If Christ's kingdom came at the same time the twelve thrones for the disciples were set up, just when was it that the disciples sat on those twelve thrones in Christ's kingdom?  Matthew 9:28 tells us.  "And Jesus said unto them, Verily, I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, IN THE REGENERATION" (the first Resurrection when Christ was raised with an incorruptible body) "when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory" (as Peter at Pentecost said He was already sitting on this throne) "ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (which had to be from Pentecost onward during those days of the early church, when the tribes were still in existence and the disciples were establishing church practices and doctrines.  These are the same thrones discussed in Revelation 20:4, with "judgment given unto them").

Daniel 2:44 also agrees with the time that God's kingdom was set up.  He refers to the IRON and CLAY in the feet and ten toes of the image, saying, "In the days of THESE KINGS ( the days when the mixture of Roman and Judean kingdoms was still in existence, i.e., the Sea Beast and the Land Beast who was in collusion with it) "shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" (meaning the removal of any vestiges of ethnic or tribal distinctions within the New Covenant kingdom of Christ after His resurrection) "and it shall stand forever."

God's kingdom did not wait to be set up after the 4th beast had its dominion taken away; it was in place before then, and was critically involved in the process of breaking in pieces and consuming all those kingdoms / beasts.  For this reason, I give no credence to any modern-day fears of a one-world government being set up.  God has no intention of allowing anything similar to the Roman empire to ever reach that stage again - no matter what the schemes of men may strive to accomplish.

Let me know if I missed the target of addressing what you brought up, I. T. Guy.  I may be off in the weeds here...

Comment by Internet_Troll on September 11, 2017 at 11:54am

Thanks Patricia

 

I will try stick to the main points

 

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

Do you find this in anyway connected to Daniel's vision of the son of man?

Im not sure how you read the kingdoms in Daniel but for me it is one kingdom taking over from another, thus naturally the son of man takes over from the 4th beast.
But consider the following:
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

I read the words of the angel as an interpretation of the vision i.e. the son of man coming to the Ancient of Days are the (that is, represents) people of the most High possessing the kingdom. It seems to me that the beast wears out the saints, then judgment is given in their favour and then at that time they possess the kingdom, thus they do not possess the kingdom at the same time as the beast is consuming and destroying. That would also mean the son of man does not approach the Ancient of Days until it is time to end the dominion of the 4th beast.

 

You mentioned one of the tricky things. You said Jesus already had all power at His resurrection. If that is absolutely true, how then could the 4th beast still have any dominion?

Comment by Patricia Watkins on Tuesday

Hi I. T. Guy,

I'll try to stay on track here, too.  No, I don't see Luke 21:27 as the same event as Daniel 7:13.  The Son of Man in Luke 21:27 comes in a cloud with power and great glory to the earth for the redemption of His people.  In Daniel 7:13, the Son of Man comes with the clouds of heaven and is brought near to the Ancient of Days in heaven instead.  Two different destinations and two different events for the Son of Man.

Yes, I agree that each of the 4 kingdoms were sequentially "left to other people" as Daniel 2:44 says, but this is not true of the kingdom of God.  God's kingdom did not wait to derive its authority from having any earthly kingdom pass its power over to Him, enabling Him to then set up His own kingdom.  God's kingdom power is independent and outside of all human authorization.  It derives its power from no one on earth.  As Christ told Pilate in John 18:36, His kingdom was not OF or FROM this world - He did not need mankind to contribute to Him setting up His kingdom.  That is why Daniel 2:44 said that IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS (while the iron and clay were still in power and had not been dismantled yet), God, independently of all these 4 kingdoms' powers, set up His own separate kingdom in Christ, and gave Him His throne at His ascension.  Christ's kingship was His high priesthood on the throne of heaven's mercy seat.

Here are a few more references showing Christ receiving His kingdom BEFORE He came with the clouds in power and great glory at His return in Luke 21:27. 

Look at the parable in Luke 19:12-15.  "A certain nobleman" (Christ) "went into a far country" (heaven) "TO RECEIVE FOR HIMSELF A KINGDOM" (at His ascension) "AND (then) TO RETURN" (in AD 70).  The rebellious citizens knew He had been given the kingdom already, because they refused to let Him REIGN OVER THEM (as their high priest).  "And it came to pass that when He was returned" (in AD 70), "HAVING (already) RECEIVED THE KINGDOM" (at His ascension), He handed out rewards to the faithful servants, and death sentences to those rebels.

Here's another in Revelation 3:21.  "To him that overcometh" (in the future) "will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame" (past tense) "and am set down with my Father in His throne" Christ was already sitting on this throne as John was writing.  He was then reigning, and the overcoming saints would join His reign later on.  II Timothy 2:12 states this point best.  "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him" (when they finally possessed the kingdom later on).

Here's yet another in Revelation 2:26-27.  Speaking to those in the Thyatira church, Christ tells them, "...Hold fast till I come.  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end" (when Christ would come in AD 70) "to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron" (the overcomers would rule, at the end of the OC age, at Christ's coming) "as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers, even as I (already) received of my Father" (this same power to rule with an unbroken rod of iron, and to break the nations in pieces He would share with them).  The prophecy of Psalms 2:9 predicted when Christ would receive this power, and it was on the day He became the First-begotten from the dead.  This was the day when "All power" had been given unto Christ, as He claimed that He already had this power in Matthew 28:18 before He left this earth.

Here's another in Matthew 13:41-43.  "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom" (a kingdom that already existed) "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father..."  This "shining forth" in the kingdom would be the time when the saints took and possessed the kingdom that Christ had already established with the New Covenant.

All these above references indicate that Christ received a kingdom at His ascension, ruling as a high priest on that throne of the mercy seat in heaven at God's right hand until AD 70.  That was when the resurrected saints joined Him in heaven and all the 4 kingdoms of Daniel's statue were crushed by the stone kingdom (the divine council over all of them being disbanded at that time).  The saints then became essentially the "divine council" presence in the world - each of them an ambassador representing the King of kings.  This is when they possessed the kingdom - on earth and in heaven as well - the kingdom that Christ had already been ruling over since His ascension.

Your last question was to inquire how the 4th beast could still have any dominion if Jesus already had all power after His resurrection.  That is really simple.  Just read Daniel 7:27 where it describes the kingdom of the Most High, "whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom and all dominions shall serve and obey Him".  Notice: there are still dominions here that exist underneath the Most High's ultimate kingdom.  These dominions are all subservient to that of the Most High, even though they are still called "dominions" or "powers".  The Roman Sea Beast could have had no power at all over Christ if it had not been given that power from above, Christ told Pilate in John 18:11.  It could go no further than God allowed it to go.  The same was true of all the other Beasts, even before Christ's ascension, but especially after it. 

You may want to look again at how you are reading Daniel 7:21-22: "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; (PAUSE - next is something else that Daniel beheld.)  He beheld "until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High; (PAUSE - next is something else that Daniel beheld.)  He beheld when "the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." 

The way this is typically read is that "the horn prevailed against the saints until the Ancient of Days came."   I don't think all those phrases were meant to run together as one thought, with all of them taking place at one time.  We know that the little horn (Nero) did prevail in persecuting the saints after the fire of Rome from AD 64 through AD 68 at his death.  The Ancient of Days did not come in AD 68.  When Daniel 7:26 says that the little horn's dominion shall be taken away and consumed "unto the end", it doesn't mean that the little horn lasted "unto the end" of AD 70.  "Unto the end" simply means that the little horn's dominion was consumed and destroyed "UTTERLY", or "TO THE MAX", as we would say.  Check the Septuagint translation on this and you will see what I mean.  Nero, the little horn on that 4th Beast, didn't last past AD 68.  That was the year when his Julio-Claudian dynasty was destroyed "UTTERLY" OR "TO THE MAX" when he left no heir. 

I hope all this above isn't too far off-track from your comment, although it certainly has strayed off of the theme of the original post...

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