Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Genesis, the Old Covenant, and Gauntlets for the Critics of Covenant Creation

For nine years now, I have witnessed preterists essentially denying the
validity and applicability of Genesis to New Testament discussions of
the Old Covenant.

Yes, preterists recognized that AD 70 brought an end to Adam's sin and that Adam's death was some undefined
"spiritual" death. But that has been the extent of it.

To the preterist community in general, the Old Covenant started at Sinai and
Genesis had little or nothing to say. Genesis was to the Old Covenant
what Tolkien's Silmarillion was to the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Few
care about it.

In the fall of 2006, I coined the term Covenant Creation. The spark for the idea was paring down some ideas by Mike
Sullivan and Ward Finley, removing the part that Tim Martin had
demonstrated was unworkable in the often misquoted appendix of his 2005
booklet, Beyond Creation Science. At the time, Tim told me I was off the
deep end and I told Tim that this was all he had left.

A year later, this is the view of Genesis that went to press in the 3rd edition of Beyond Creation Science.

To date, no one has attempted to refute Tim's 2005 claims about Genesis 1.
All that has emerged is an attempt to refute Covenant Creation based on
the assumption that Tim's 2005 claims are valid.

After nine years, what is the situation today? There are Covenant Creationists and
there are people who deny the validity and applicability of Genesis to
the New Testament discussions of the Old Covenant. Not one critic of
Covenant Creation has bothered to develop a positive case for Genesis as
non-covenantal, that addresses these New Testament issues.

1. An end to sin.
2. Paul's continued reference to Adam in his discussion of the resurrection.
3. The crushing of the serpents head.
4. An actual definition of Adam's death.
5. How Abel, Noah, Abraham, Judah, and even Moses knew The Law (Ex. 18) before The Law was given to Israel in Ex. 21ff.
6. How sin can't be imputed without a law, yet the punishment of sin, death, can be imputed. Rom. 5:13-14.
7. How Abel could have faith in a covenant that wouldn't even be made for another 2600 years.
8. How The Law could be added, when there is nothing to add it to.
9. How Heavens and Earth can pass away.
10. How Jesus can claim something was from the beginning, yet claim it will not exist in the resurrection?

I could go on, but this should be enough for an honest person to conclude
that Genesis, from the very beginning of the book, is critical to the
Old Covenant development. Christ did not put an end to the sin of
transgressing the Law from Sinai, He put an end to Adam's sin. Adam's
sin was the result of violating his covenant/law with God.

It is a major tenet of preterism, that a covenant can not end until all promises in that covenant are fulfilled. When was Gen. 3:15 fulfilled? Yes, there will be covenant deniers. "Gen. 3:15 isn't part of any covenant." Who's going to take them seriously.

I take a lot of heat for Covenant Creation. But where is the alternative? So far, material
creation ignores the issues numbered above. Material creation has no
answers. Those who insist on material creation have not even tried. I
will not ignore these issues
as my opponents do. Neither will any of the others who have adopted Covenant Creation.


Nine years from now, there will be Covenant Creation and it's critics. But
will there be an alternative to Covenant Creation? Will one of my
critics step up and do the work? Either Covenant Creation is right or it
will win by default because no one has an alternative.

Some of my critics claim I will never change my mind, that I have too much
invested in Covenant Creation. Try me. Put together an alternative. Our
critics have produced nothing and as long as they have nothing, there is
nothing to change to.

The Old Covenant, the first Heaven and first Earth, passed away in it's entirety with the destruction of the
temple. The first Heaven and first Earth was/were created in Genesis 1.
The entity that was created in Genesis 1 has ceased to exist. It has
been replaced by the New Creation, the New Heaven and New Earth, the New
Covenant.

If you don't like it, then suggest an alternative that starts in Genesis with Adam, instead of pretending Genesis is not part
of the covenant history.

Views: 100

Comment by JL Vaughn on August 3, 2010 at 3:42pm
Robin,

Are you claiming that meeting w/ the high priest once a year is the same as "brought man into the presence of God?"

You made a distinction between "promise" (Abraham) and "covenant" (Sinai?). So again. Why does Scripture use the same word "covenant" for Abraham's relationship with God if it is only a "promise" and not the "covenant?"
Comment by Tami on August 3, 2010 at 6:55pm
"But the covenant that ended was Jewish. That was the only covenant in the world that brought man into the presence of God."

Robin, are you sure you do not want to restate this? You are saying they were in the presence of God under the Mosaic covenant?
Comment by Doug on August 4, 2010 at 9:04am
Robin,

I started a blog post at http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/forum/topics/whats-really-new-about... that so far no one has commented on. I think it answers your comments perfectly.

The old covenant was NOT God's attempt to start something with mankind. It was focused purely on a tribal people-group.

But I would like you to read my other post and comment there please.
Comment by MoGrace2u on August 4, 2010 at 9:20am
Abraham had the promise from God long before the covenant by circumcision was made. It was only after Abe and Sarah took matters into their own hands and Ishmael was born that there was the need for the covenant. Much like how Adam's covenant came about - after he sinned.

As for Israel being in the presence of God - what about the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night? Or the need to be purified for 3 days before approaching Mt Sinai - or when coming near the sanctuary?
Comment by MoGrace2u on August 4, 2010 at 9:23am
Hi Doug - will do.
Comment by JL Vaughn on September 5, 2010 at 11:46pm
Thanks Ken
Comment by Norm on September 6, 2010 at 8:26am
Isa 28:15-18 Because ye have said, WE HAVE MADE A COVENANT WITH DEATH, AND WITH SHEOL … Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone of sure foundation: … (18) And YOUR COVENANT WITH DEATH SHALL BE ANNULLED, AND YOUR AGREEMENT WITH SHEOL SHALL NOT STAND;

Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law:

Rom 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin;

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Comment by Allyn Morton on September 6, 2010 at 11:26am
Ted,

Are you carefully reading Norm's post above? How does this fit with what you said about my understanding On September 5, 2010 at about 9:30pm?
Comment by MoGrace2u on September 6, 2010 at 3:50pm
I don't suppose anyone will consider it, but the covenant which Adam was enjoined to, insured that it would only be by the death of Christ that man would be redeemed. That is why the first covenant with man concluded that all would be brought under its provision. It is only in that way that mercy could then be given under the covenant of life in Christ. In the interim, the law given to Moses also insured that even the people of God would be held in death until their Hope arrived.
Comment by Allyn Morton on September 6, 2010 at 3:54pm
Ted says:
Allyn, I don't even understand your question...

What is it you are specifically asking?


What? You don't understand where to find what it was you said in this thread. I gave you the date and the approximate time. When I first wrote my post to you today it was 13 hours before that you wrote the post I was referring to. That should help you better in finding it.

I do not see a covenant of death only regarding Gen. 3:15. Why is this so hard for you? I see the covenant of promising a war between Satan and Jesus. Death reigns in Satan (as well as in Adam and Eve) while life comes from Christ. So how is it when I said that it is a covenant concerning disobedience and prophetic concerning Christ that you don't get it?

Then you say:
If you are saying that Norm is only expressing "death" verses, fine. But there are LIFE verses that point back to Genesis 3:15 as well. Do you agree with that statement?

Maybe there are. Why don't you show me where those verses are that point back to Gen 3:15 that are LIFE verses and we can discuss them either here or in your "Promise" thread?

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