Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Andrew Perriman on Hell, Annhilationism, and consistent theology

This was an interesting article by Andrew Perriman. Now if only he would be consistent and apply this same hermeneutic to the resurrection and second coming as he does to hell.

 

Here's a quote from the end of the article:

 

My conclusions about hell are the result (I hope) of pursuing this methodology consistently. I think the “both/and” approach (both temporal judgment and final judgment) is to be resisted unless there is clear literary evidence that this is what was intended (I don’t think there generally is). In most instances interpreters are trying to have their cake and eat it—they are unwilling to let go of their theology and trust what the Bible is actually saying.

 

http://www.postost.net/node/568

Views: 598

Comment by Doug on November 30, 2011 at 1:42pm

Jerel,

I have wrestled with this issue for years (classical hell or some other construct) Perriman seemed non-commital on the issue. He stated more what he does NOT believe, rather than what he DOES believe. I can deal with that, because too often people are so dogmatic on the issue that they won't listen to properly exegeted theology. It's a very emotional issue, to be sure. After all, we do want to know what will ultimately happen to our souls. Nevertheless, we have to properly divide the WORD, and because we aren't part of the Jewish culture of old, its very difficult.

 

Now, as to what I believe.... Well, as I said, I have wrestled with it for a long time. I think I have made peace finally, and I came to the conclusion that God has deliberately hidden some things from us about eternal life (or lack thereof) The big nagging question I have is why? Why is the scripture so obscure on a decidedly important question as this? Here are some possibilities.

  1. The post-mortem future hasn't been decided yet.
  2. Human decisions drive God's decisions, so God is held "hostage" by whether or not we receive the gospel, so "hell" is in flux
  3. God has chosen this topic to be a mystery for reasons only He knows

OK, so those are jsut a few ideas, but you get my point. It's confusing (at least to me) I have an open mind, but there are so many people with so many strong opinions on this topic, I would rather just put it into the realm of "the unknown".

Comment by Micah Martin on November 30, 2011 at 4:12pm

It is interesting that James Jordan comes up in the comments. 

Comment by jjkratt on November 30, 2011 at 7:50pm

Doug,

That's fine with me too. In fact I struggle with this too and want to continue to remain open minded on it because there is an awful lot that we are not told and remains in a "mystery."

 

But that actually wasn't the inconsistency that I was noting. What I was noting was that he points out how the study of Gehenna in the gospels should not be used as a shadow of some other reality... that in Matthew, "Gehenna" as Jesus used it referred simply to Israel's national judgment in AD70 (that should be a point that every full preterist is in agreement on, however they see the afterlife ramifications of that judgment). Perriman argues for an either/or, not a both/and. So to me, I find that very interesting, and damaging to the partial preterist paradigm, those who say that AD70 was a shadow of another great day of judgment, one at the end of time. Having read much of his books and blog posts, I see Perriman being one of the most consistent of all the PP's, but, he still has a problem with finding anything in the prophets and gospels to support that 1 Cor 15 and Rev 20 are still future. He wouldn't go so far to say that those "future" events are a shadow of AD70, he would just say that they are two more remaining events to be fulfilled in the future.

 

Blessings,

Jerel

Comment by jjkratt on December 1, 2011 at 10:31am

Perriman has a part 2 followup today.

http://www.postost.net/node/569

 

I find it interesting his argument on how Rev 20-22 must be future even tough he admits practically everything else must be revolving around the prophets and Israel's national-historical judgment. He says so because the language is "cosmic," therefore the whole universe must be involved in the final judgment. Notice how he is defining life and death and creation; it would seem that covenant creation helps fill in the missing gaps. In a book that is about Israel's Last Days (Revelation), with deep roots into the prophets, he has 3 chapters (20-22) pushing out way past the "shortly" coming events without any roots to the prophets and Paul even though these chapters are indeed rich from the prophets, especially Isaiah and Ezekiel. His view of creation and death is driving his interpretation, and he even admits the difficulty and tension that exists in his view. Interesting.

Comment by Tim Martin on December 1, 2011 at 1:35pm

Thanks for pointing this out, Jerel.

 

And look at the comment from Doug in CO:

 

As far as Revelation 20 and 21 goes, I agree that they should not be taken too literally.  But, they do establish some basic dynamics which I think we gloss over and should take more seriously.  For instance, in the New Heaven and New Earth we still have people invited to enter the New Jerusalem (which means that they started outside and have to make the choice to enter).  However, not all do so, so that dogs, socerers, etc. are kept outside of the gate.  The parallel passages in Isaiah 65 and 66 clearly describe that people still die and are still rebellious in some context in the New Heaven and New Earth.  If this is so, this means that there is some function of sin and death after the new, perfect creation.

 

It always fascinates me when people read the text honestly for what it says without concern for the accepted traditional doctrine.

 

Blessings,

Tim Martin

 

Comment by Doug on December 1, 2011 at 2:19pm

NoOne,

I agree. That's a good point. But do YOU think God makes it clear in scripture? Am I just missing something?

 

Jerel,

 

"and he even admits the difficulty and tension that exists in his view. Interesting."

 

It wasn't until I started studying CC that I realized that the scriptures are NOT saying a whole lot of things I assumed they were saying. For example, the idea that the bible concerns itself with cosmic things in prophecy. Or, the idea that Jesus has to come in some undefined time in OUR future! Where did I get that?

 

I suppose we are just so conditioned by a lifetime of being told things are a certain way (such as hearing the phrase "Jesus is coming soon") that we take it for granted. Its almost impossible for a person to break out of this mindset, so I am not too harsh on others who ascribe to that idea. Even in my church, that phrase is thrown around commonly, and also such phrases as "We have to resist the devil".

I just have to privately ignore such things in the interest of inter-christian brotherhood.

Comment by jjkratt on December 1, 2011 at 8:39pm

Tim,

You are welcome. It is fascinating, huh?

Doug,

Yes I think you are right it is a matter of being conditioned. Yet, some of us were able to see the truth beyond the conditioning. That either speaks of possibly our age when we discovered it (having no long held emotional ties to one particular view), or our ability to be challenged or even wrong and have a Berean attitude, or are that we are gullible with the first wind of a peculiar doctrine. Regarding how I treat others, I am a teacher at a large futurist church so I've learned well how to look out for other people's best good in the Lord without pushing preterism or CC on them, much like how Norm interacts as elder of his church. With Perriman, however, since he is a scholar and puts his opinion out for people to criticize, I believe it is fair to lovingly criticize his view. Don't you think?

Blessings,

Jerel

Comment by Doug Wilkinson on December 2, 2011 at 5:57am

There are a number of roads to preterism.  Mine was through Revelation 20-22.  Everything in my traditional futurist system was humming along just fine until I got to these chapters.  For the life of me I couldn't make sense of there still being sin and sinners after the New Heaven and New Earth.  To say that this should be impossible according to traditional theology is an understatement.  I'm still looking into how we ended up assuming that all sin or rebellion would disappear from human history.   But, the reality is that Revelation and Isaiah both clearly say that there is no final elimination of sin and rebellion from human history.  In my opinion, few if any evangelical Christians have considered this fact and the quickest way to kick the legs out from underneath their theological chairs is to force them to deal with it.

Comment by marty drew on December 3, 2011 at 7:34pm

how can a heathen who dies at 50 be roasted forever and ever in a fiery hell and be declared  a justified sentence.it goes against gods own justice of a tooth for a tooth ect.how much higher is his mercy and judgement than our own.i personaly would not be so cruel-how much more our creator,

Comment by Doug Wilkinson on December 3, 2011 at 7:51pm

My current position with straight heathen (never evangelized, never apostatized) is a judgment based on how they have violated their own conscience and then annihilation.

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