Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

I read from  Josephus that we believe in eternal souls like Plato did. Biblically this seems hard to prove. I suppose Aquinas' Summa Theologica question 75 is where the church historically turned for the answer. But it also seems like philosophical pondering rather than biblical exegesis. 

I was taught that I was born dead and needed to her born again. Therefore my second birth would qualify as  a resurrection. So when I met Don Preston I asked him if there is an infinite number of resurrections and he said he was working on that question. I think Alan's view, to deal with the fact that death is defeated, is eternal death or eternal life exists at conception. but if I follow the premise that the covenant creation was with a portion of humanity (as put forth by Tim) then I question the premise that I was born dead in the first Adam.

If I was just an animal until I got breathed into by God then my second birth was no more a resurrection then my first one was. The vision of the sheet that indicated to Peter that the gospel was going to the nations represented those outside the covenant as animals and not men yet. 

Any thoughts ? or has this subject already been discussed? I think it also means the judgment concerned those in the first Adam. 

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Comment by Doug Wilkinson on March 17, 2012 at 9:31pm

The first problem is the concept of "eternal souls".  If your soul is "eternal", then you are preexistent with an infinitely past existence just like God.  That should be a problem.  God may decide to keep you around with him indefinitely from this point on, but I'd avoid using the term "eternal" for the soul.

Doug

Comment by Eohn Rhodes on March 18, 2012 at 5:52am

That's a good point. My terms do need honing. If eternal implies no beginning then should I call them perpetual or everlasting souls? What about the eternal city? Did it not have a beginning? The common belief is that once a soul is created by God, which means he attaches it to the 'animal'  (meaning person) at conception, as a special creation, then it will never cease being aware of it's existence. That sounds like a second birth to me. Thanks for the comment. 

Comment by MIckey on March 19, 2012 at 8:37am

"At conception" is a little tricky too.  Not many consider the situation of "identical twins."  At conception there is fertilized egg, one life and one set of gentic material.  Later after several cell divisions there are now 2 individual human lives.  If the "soul" was inserted "at conception" what happened next?  It split as well so each would have "half of a soul" or dupilcated so each has the same soul or something else?

Comment by thomas greenlee on March 19, 2012 at 2:04pm

Mickey,

 

As a believer and an MD, you certainly have faced this question. What would your professional believing answer be?

 

Tom

Comment by Alan Bondar on March 19, 2012 at 7:52pm

Eohn,

It is precisely because of the point you stated above that the view put forth in my book has change. That statement was:

 

"...but if I follow the premise that the covenant creation was with a portion of humanity (as put forth by Tim) then I question the premise that I was born dead in the first Adam."

 

I have come full circle to justification by faith because access for the nations today is attained by entering into Israel. It was Israel's death that was defeated. I'm still working out all of the implications of that, but prior to writing my book, I hadn't made the covenant creation connection. I was still trying to see things universally in Adam. So my original view doesn't work in light of covenant creation. For those who do not embrace covenant creation, I believe my original view is the only logical conclusion.

Comment by Eohn Rhodes on March 19, 2012 at 8:08pm

this is why i love this site. because it is not static. I don't know if I would have put that together in my lifetime had i not listened to you on AD70 radio.

Comment by Doug on March 20, 2012 at 8:24am

Eohn,

"If I was just an animal until I got breathed into by God then my second birth was no more a resurrection then my first one was. "

I don't understand this statement of yours. Care to elaborate? What is your logic?

Comment by Eohn Rhodes on March 20, 2012 at 10:15am

When God breathed into Adam's nostrils He gave him a type of life He did not give the other animals. Adam had fellowship in a real ongoing relationship with his creator because he had spiritual life added to his biological life. When he lost that gloriously free relationship he was temporarily covered with law until the second Adam brought true spiritual life to to those in Adam. Jesus breathed on his disciples showing the second Adam to be the creator.

For them Pentecost began the process of raising the law of sin and death into the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Only Jews were saved at pentecost. Gentiles were never in the O.C. of sin and death so they were adopted. Resurrection from the law of death did not pertain to them. They were given spiritual life for the first time. All they had was biological life. That is the category I put myself in. I got biological life at conception and I gained spiritual life at age 21 when I was born again. I, until recently, called that my resurrection. Now I  think resurrection will never apply to me because I can not die spiritually nor was I in the spiritual death of Adam.

God's image is reflected in His creation. Even people without second birth have higher relational and creative potential then a cheetah. Unless we get creative and relational a cheetah can dominate us in more ways than one. Without God's goodness even our creativity and relational activities tend toward animal behavior. Which is why our world is war weary and abortion ridden. In the wake of christian ignorance the 'animals' fill in the vacuum with their own story.

Comment by Doug on March 20, 2012 at 10:22pm

Eohn,

I appreciate your take on things, but there are some holes in your logic. For example, you said only Jews were saved at Pentecost, and that Adam was covered by law, in which the gentiles don't need "resurrection". However, if Jesus is the redeemer for all mankind, and He is the second Adam, then logically because only the Jews were redeemed from the law by the second Adam, Jesus, then only Jews could be saved! Gentiles could not, because they were never in the first Adam, so they also can't be in the second Adam.

I am not trying to do damage to your arguments intentionally, but you must be logically consistent. There are some other issues in your argument, but I don't wish to get into those right now.

Comment by Eohn Rhodes on March 21, 2012 at 9:02am

Doug, 

I appreciate the interaction. I'm not sure my view is right and I am sure that I have errors in my theology. Here goes my attempt. Adam chose knowledge of good and evil rather than remain in the free gift of living in the garden and trusting God. He fell from grace and into law (law is the knowledge of good and evil). The question is was it neccessary for me to be born in Adam one in order to be born into Adam two? 

When Galatians refers to law it refers to the fully embodied law given at Mt Sinai. I think we both agree I was never in that covenant made with that portion of humanity. I was never in Abraham either, yet I recieved promises made to Abraham. Galatians is clear that the Gentiles were in no way to allow judaisers to put them under law. That would be a fall from grace and into law. They were coming into the new garden without ever being in the fall of the old garden(in my opinion).

Both Adam and Abraham responded similarly. Adam was promised life by grace then after the fall he was promised  a seed for redemption. Abraham was promised a son leading back to life by grace. Both listened to their wife and tried to make life happen on their own. They both reaped increased pain and frustration. Abraham literally got the flesh cut off of him that he tried to make the promise happen with.

God's wrath was coming down on those in the first Adam, because they not only chose law over grace in Adam but they said they could keep the fully embodied law at Sinai. They were fully accountable to the law unless they chose Adam two and returned to the garden of grace that no longer contained the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Jesus took the law and fulfilled it and is the tree of life that we have access to. He is also the knowledge of good and evil and writes the law on our hearts by the Spirit.

Jesus redeemed the body of Moses from the law of sin and death. That corporate body(O.T. assembly) was resurrected into the body of Christ. The body of Christ can not die by falling from grace into law again. Spiritual death no longer exists. Since the marriage, the free woman from above(Galatians 4:27 the city that came down from heaven,the bride,the church) is bearing children. They are just born alive as a new creation that did not come directly from the old creation. No one is coming from the spiritually dead ones waiting in Hades or spiritually dead ones waiting on earth and I do not go to Hades(the place of the spiritually dead ones) to wait for spiritual life. When I die I go straight to heaven. I am saved from death because I am not tempted to eat from the tree of kogae because its not here. And I am saved from simply dying biologically and returning to dirt. And I am saved from simply serving animal impulses with no greater purpose. In my view the church is the bride(mother of all living or second Eve) and Christ is the husband or second Adam. They can produce children without involving death, unlike the first Adam.

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