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O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

God was never married to Israel in the OC

Check out my latest sermon for the arguments:

https://vimeo.com/37558806

Views: 8200

Comment by Tim Martin on February 28, 2012 at 10:05pm

Alan,

 

So, what you are suggesting is this:

 

“Nevertheless I will remember My [betrothal-T.M.] covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting [marriage-T.M.] covenant with you [in the future-T.M.]. Then you will remember your [old covenant-T.M.] ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters [in the last days-T.M.]; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My [betrothal-T.M.] covenant with you. And I will establish My [marriage-T.M.] covenant with you. Then [ at the consummation of the age/wedding supper of the Lamb-T.M.] you shall know that I am the Lord, that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame [under the old covenant-T.M.], when I provide you an atonement [in the last days of the old covenant age-T.M.] for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’” Ezekiel 16:60-63


Absolute, genius! Thanks, Alan. This is revolutionary...


Tim Martin

BeyondCreationScience.com

Comment by Alan Bondar on February 28, 2012 at 10:24pm

Nothing like taking a whole sermon and making the case in 4 verses! That's precisely what I'm arguing. Thanks for pointing out Ezekiel 16 this way, Tim.

Comment by Tim Martin on February 28, 2012 at 10:35pm

Let me try this one more time:

 

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new [marriage-T.M.] covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the [betrothal-T.M.] covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My [betrothal-T.M.] covenant which they broke, though I was a [faithful betrothed-T.M.] husband to them, says the Lord But this is the [marriage-T.M.] covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those [old covenant-T.M.] days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts [consummating the marriage covenant via intimacy-T.M.]; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people [husband and wife, forever-T.M.]." Jeremiah 31:31-3; cf. Hebrews 8:7-13


Holy smokes, that works... like really  works!! Excellent job, Alan...

 

Tim Martin

BeyondCreationScience.com

Comment by Alan Bondar on February 28, 2012 at 11:14pm
And they shall know the Lord. Why? Because He goes into her for the first time by writing the law on their hearts. To know the Lord is language of marriage consummation. God could not have been married to Israel in the old because she never "knew" Him.
Comment by Tim Martin on February 28, 2012 at 11:31pm

Alan,

 

Right.

 

That also makes the marriage of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 fully typological only  of the new covenant union between Christ and the Church. Israel in a betrothal covenant with God during the old covenant does not fulfill the Adam and Eve type.

 

Betrothal, in Hebrew culture and practice, was a preparatory covenant. It was never the full marriage covenant. And the marriage covenant always followed the betrothal covenant time period. This was not modern America...

 

So, I found another one:

 

Then the Lord said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover and is committing adultery [against her betrothal covenant-T.M.], just like the [betrothal-T.M.] love of the Lord for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.” So I bought her for myself for fifteen shekels of silver [half the price of a slave since the Northern Kingdom was half of Israel: 30 shekels of silver is the full price of Israel-T.M.], and one and one-half homers of barley.  And I said to her, “You shall stay with me many days; you shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man [during this entire betrothal time-T.M.]—so, too, will I be [chaste-T.M.] toward you [during this betrothal time-T.M.].” For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter days [when the time for the marriage covenant arrives-T.M]. Hosea 3

 

Ok, that's three. I'm sold!

 

Tim Martin

BeyondCreationScience.com

 

Comment by Alan Bondar on February 28, 2012 at 11:39pm
This is for all the covenant creation haters (tongue in cheek): This resolves the tension between our views. Now I see why you only want to go back to Sinai. That's where the betrothal took place. But if we recognize that the Old Covenant was the betrothal covenant, then that now forces all of us to go back to Israel's father, because the betrothal covenant was always made with the father first! That's why the NT writers can go back to Genesis and Sinai in dealing with the beginning of the OC. It's two parts to the same covenant: The terms made with the father and the actual betrothal to the daughter.
Comment by Alan Bondar on February 28, 2012 at 11:41pm
Tim, try another one. Let's see if it keeps working.
Comment by Alan Bondar on February 28, 2012 at 11:59pm
Tim,
More to add your post: this makes Adam and Eve the literal parents of Israel. So much for Adam being the father of the human race.

Also, in the Hosea text you used, this view would explain the language of Hosea 1 regarding having children of whoredom. None of the kids were actually his. Hosea betroths himself to a woman of whoredom. He adopts the children of foreigners as his children. Typology of God adopting Gentiles who were not His children? I'm pretty this is the mystery hidden in the OT.

Further, Hosea 2:18 explicitly teaches that Genesis 1 is prophetic of the marriage covenant that would include the Gentiles! Well, this would explain why God would want to adopt them. They are the children of His wife!
Comment by Alan Bondar on February 29, 2012 at 12:03am
This would also explain why the adoption was taking place before the marriage was complete. God was adopting the children that belonged His betrothed wife before they got married. Talk about a committed and faithful husband!
Comment by Tim Martin on February 29, 2012 at 12:26am

Ok, this one isn't quite as obvious up front, but it rams it home by the end:

 

“Bring charges against your mother, bring charges; For she is not My wife, nor am I her Husband! [God calls off the marriage due to violation of the betrothal covenant. God sends her away with a certificate of divorce like Joseph initially intended with Mary during their betrothal-T.M.] Let her put away her harlotries from her sight, And her adulteries from between her breasts; Lest I strip her naked And expose her, as in the day she was born [naked: just like Israel's birth in the Garden of Eden - see Ez. 16:1-7- T.M.], And make her like a wilderness, And set her like a dry land, And slay her with thirst. “I will not have mercy on her children, For they are the children of harlotry [note the text explicitly claims these are not children of the marriage between God and Israel- T.M.].  For their mother has played the harlot; She who conceived them has behaved shamefully [bearing illegitimate children-T.M.]. For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers, Who give me my bread and my water, My wool and my linen, My oil and my drink.’...


She will chase her lovers, But not overtake them; Yes, she will seek them, but not find them. Then she will say, ‘I will go and return to my first [betrothed-T.M.] husband, For then it was better for me than now.’...


“Therefore, behold, I will allure her, Will bring her into the wilderness [Jesus first in his temptation, then the bride during Tribulation-T.M.], And speak comfort to her

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