Deathisdefeated

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In the New Heavens and New Earth: WE, the HEAVENS, ARE the TEMPLE

(Make no mistake: the identity of God's covenant people is ALWAYS "on topic" at deathisdefeated.)

Recently a poster here, in his zeal to prove that the "New Heavens and New Earth" is global and universal in scope, and is not synonymous with the New Jerusalem, and also to prove that "the heavens" are not the temple (thus taking issue with a temple creation motif in Genesis 1), wrote this:

"The text clearly states that God and Lamb are the temple in the CITY."

Indeed it does.

And the text ALSO states that WE, the CHURCH are the temple AND the CITY. HE is the temple. AND WE are the temple.

AND the HEAVENS of the "New Heavens and New Earth" are the ALSO temple. WE are those HEAVENS, of whom it is said, "in them, He has set a tabernacle for the Sun." (YES, exegetically proved.)

Are the unregenerate a tabernacle for the SUN? If not, then they are not part of the "heavens" of the New Heavens and New Earth--the New Creation. If so, then universal redemption is taught by the Scripture.

So the TEMPLE is:
-the church (us)
-the Lamb/God (Him)
-the heavens (also us)

Him at rest in us, and us at rest in Him--that is the TEMPLE--the holiest of all, the perfected conscience of worshiper, the many mansions in the Father's House...the New Heavens dwelling in a New Earth, of whom it is said:

Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Isa 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

The heavens are singing--they are singing because they have been redeemed. The heavens declare His glory--they declare the glory of His salvation by the gospel and His "work of righteousness" which has made them HIS TEMPLE--a tabernacle for the Sun.

Views: 119

Comment by Rich on August 30, 2010 at 12:59pm
Tami,

I see a slight change in what was argued about in the other thread with Ken.

Am I right in saying that you take only the "heavens" (part of the NHNE) as the Temple, and not the "earth" ( the other part of the NHNE)?

I am in some what of an agreement with Ken's take. Rev. 21:1-2 clearly shows the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven (Rev 21:2 & 10). Are you saying that the NHNE is one and the same as the New Jersualem? I can't see how that can work.

My problem, and the one I think Ken has, is Rev 21-22 clearly show the unbeliever dwelling within the NHNE but outside the "City". How can they dwell within the NHNE and yet be outside the "City" (New Jerusalem) if they are one and the same?

-Rich
Comment by Rich on August 30, 2010 at 1:13pm
Rev 22:14

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

-Rich
Comment by Tami on August 30, 2010 at 1:27pm
Rich,

The unbeliever does *not* dwell in the New Heavens and New Earth. And it is a "spatial".geographical/"locational" understanding of the New Heavens and New Earth which leads to the assumption that unbelievers dwell "within" it. The Bible uses the NH/NE and the New Jerusalem as synonymous terms. Whatever is true of one is also true of the other. That is the case I made here, and of course we lay it out extensively and repeatedly in our Isaiah study.

As for the distinction between "heavens" and "earth" within "the new heavens and new earth," yes, I distinguish them as two parts, but they are two parts of one New Creation. Heavens/Conscience and Earth/Covenant. We can't separate the "new heavens" ( new conscience) and the "new earth" (new law) because because we wouldn't have a new conscience apart from a new law.

Hope that helps.

Rich, please consider also all the Scripture that has been brought forward which clearly defines the "heavens" in the new covenant as REDEEMED people. You cannot get around that language, and so I would encourage you to consider again that your presupposition of a global scope for the New Heavens and New Earth may need to be revisited.
Comment by Rich on August 30, 2010 at 1:46pm
Rev 21:1-4
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Clearly the New Jerusalem (City) is coming down out of heaven. This new Jerusalem (City not NHNE) is equated with the tabernacle (temple).

Rev 21:22-27
"22 But I saw no temple in it (the City not the NHNE), for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its (the City's not the NHNE) light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its (city not NHNE)) gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it (City not NHNE) anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life."

Is this not clear? Only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life may enter the "City", not the NHNE.

Rev 22:14-15
"14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city (not NHNE). 15 But outside (the Gates of the City, not the NHNE) are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

Again, only the believer may enter the City, not the NHNE. Outside the City are the unbelievers.

I just can not see how you can equate the City with the NHNE. It seems so clear the City dwells within the NHNE just as the Garden dwelled within the old Heavens and old Earth of Gen 1.

-Rich
Comment by Rich on August 30, 2010 at 2:01pm
"1) The new creation represented the creation of the new heaven and earth.
2) The old creation was representative of the old heaven and earth (Genesis 1).
3) The new creation replaces the old creation.
4) The old heaven and earth have passed away"

I agree with all four.

Is 65:17-19
"17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying."

I think it is clear that God was going to create both a NHNE and a New Jerusalem. God then states, "And her people a joy". Who's people" Jerusalem's people, not the people in the NHNE.

-Rich
Comment by Tami on August 30, 2010 at 2:04pm
Rich, did you read my post which also proves the Scriptural equation of "the heavens" and the temple? Big picture.

This distinction you are making is something you are imposing onto the text. Please compare Isaiah 65 with Rev 21 and see the synonyms. What is true of the new heavens and new earth? (the former shall not be remembered nor come to mind) What is true of the New Jerusalem? (the former things have passed away)

Again, when you use words like "within" you are imposing "geography" and "location" onto a kingdom of conscience. It's not a place. It's a people.

Please at least take some time to consider the case that is being offered here. And show me where I have erred if you don't agree.

And please, again, look at how the Scripture defines the characteristics of the "new heavens." They are **forgiven**! You should not just ignore such an emphatic statement. At least weigh it in to what you are proposing. And reconcile it with what you are asserting. Rich, if you are a universalist, then great, your universal scope of the NH/NE would be entirely consistent within that paradigm. But as Norm has so poignantly pointed out here recently, we are appreciating all of creation (both the old and the new) in its covenantal context. Not a cosmological, global context, which both universalists and futurists place it in.

Which is exactly why CC is rejected by universalists and futurists alike.
Comment by Rich on August 30, 2010 at 2:12pm
Tami,

I have read (and will read it again) but I disagree. And I am not going to sit here and give you a write up of what parts I disagree with. That is just way too much work.

I am not a univeralist. I am a believer in CC, but I still have the New Jerusalem dwelling in the NHNE just as the Garden dwelled within the old heaven and old earth of Gen 1.

Did you not have the Garden as being inside the old heaven and earth of Gen 1?

-Rich
Comment by Rich on August 30, 2010 at 2:16pm
you stated, "Rich, did you read my post which also proves the Scriptural equation of "the heavens" and the temple? Big picture."

Once again, you equte the "heavens" with the temple, but not the "earth". This is the distintion I am asking about. You are not equating the NHNE with the City (or temple), just the Heavens. Correct?
Comment by Tami on August 30, 2010 at 2:24pm
No, I don't. Because I don't see these things geographically. I believe the garden represents a state of conscience. And of relationship. Of fellowship. I don't see it at all as a geographical location. The Old Heavens and the Old Earth represent the old conscience under the old law; the New Heavens and New Earth represent the new (redeemed and perfected) conscience under a new law. These are not geographical locations either.

And I am afraid I will never be able to see how you can say you are not a universalist, and yet say at the same time that the unredeemed--who have not believed the gospel--are singing and praising God for His forgiveness. It's just never going to add up for me, Rich.

I see that we are talking across paradigms and from within completely different world view boxes. So I will leave the case each of us has presented for others to evaluate on its merits.

Blessings.

Tami
Comment by Tami on August 30, 2010 at 2:27pm
"Once again, you equate the "heavens" with the temple, but not the "earth". This is the distintion I am asking about. You are not equating the NHNE with the City (or temple), just the Heavens. Correct?"

I answered that above. They are distinct, yet inseparable. Therefore I don't grant any consequence to the rhetorical distinction you are making. Again, I answered it above.

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