Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Well it seems that Taffy left the house before I could respond but I did want this post to be on the public record.

"Correction Taffy did not leave on his own as he was removed." My mistake and I apolgize for mishandling the situation.  

 

Taffy,

 

Here is the problem with your position.  You don’t think anyone post AD70 have been redeemed.  You are correct in the literal historical sense of the term but not in the effectual fulfillment of Christ work, if I’m wrong please correct me.   Christ redeemed Israel out of their bondage to the curse which occurred while Adam was in the Garden.  I don’t think you understand the implications of what Adam’s presence in the Garden originally adds to the equation.  The Garden is the place where there is no sin for “God’s” covenant people , Adam being the first. It is not the rest of humanity outside the Garden thus the reason the animals representing Gentiles could not be a helpmeet for Adam and only from his own flesh could he find a helper.  The fall and consequently the redemption is thus purely a covenant redemption for those desiring to walk with God, it has no bearing upon those who choose to remain outside the Garden scope of redemption.  This is why Rev 21 & 22 are all about the reestablishment of Garden life with God and Christ [notice not just with God but Christ also] because it requires Christ to walk with God in the new covenant Garden.  There is no Universalism involved in this scenario where all men are brought into Garden  life unless they are faithful to God through Christ. I know folks want the Garden to be all inclusive and it is for faithful but not for those who aren’t.  Christ work of redemption on the Cross was to redeem only Israel’s faithful who’s sins were related to “Law” specifically  found cursing the Garden.  The Law was removed and those of faith were regathered to God completely as they accepted the Good news.

 

Romans chapters 5-8 are very specific in identifying what actually has occurred.  There was sin in the original Garden but it is not attributed to the faithful man until the law or commandment ruined this pristine relationship.  The “The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law”.  Paul says in Rom 7:9 that he[representing corporate Israel] was alive until the commandment showed up but because of man’s innate mortal nature could not hold on to the life the Garden provides, thus Adam’s expulsion from God’s presence. The Garden is the story of the church and the church is redeemed Israel put back into the Garden through the blood of the Cross for all men who seek to walk with God.  Yes we were not physically there in the first century to become the “first fruits” of redemption but we are part of the batch called the church.  Your denying the continuation of the church appears to be because you have not fully grasped the significance of the Garden as being the place of the church everlasting.  The reason is that outside the Garden there is still “sin” because only in the Garden is where sin is not counted. Don’t lose sight of that significance.  The Law was fully and triumphally  cast out of the Garden at AD70 with the destruction of death due to law.  And I’ll restate once again that people that call themselves the church nowdays have really screwed things up but that doesn’t negate the church everlasting which is the faithful of the body of Christ.  We can do church just about any way we want as long as we walk in the spirit of Christ as his body of faithful.  There however is still sin outside the church body life.

 

Now if you want to exegetically refute what I have stated above I’ll be all ears but so far you have not attempted to deal with these issues when we ask you to. You give excuses I believe because you simply don’t understand the issue yet and don’t know how to address it. If you did you would have jumped all over this idea the first time I presented it.  Instead you ridicule because I don’t answer your questions that you want to only dwell with. Taffy you made a lot of good insights on your website but by not listening constructively to others critiques you miss out on refining you positions to a higher level. You really need  to start listening to some of the feedback you are getting instead of being so defensive. It will make you a better student of the word.

 

Norm

 

Views: 83

Comment by Norm on March 9, 2011 at 12:38pm

Ken,

 

Obviously he can't except through his own web site. I've given him my email also if he wants to respond to me but I wrote this post this morning in response to some of the issues that were going on on his blog and was hoping that anyone who wanted to continue the dialogue could continue to follow up with it.

Comment by John on March 9, 2011 at 1:14pm

Ken,

Taffy had days to answer but instead played word games. His own words proved he is a hyper preterist.

He doesn't believe the gospel applies post AD 70.

 

I don't enjoy banning people but i have a responsibly to uphold the standards that we have set here.

We have tons of awesome material for people to study and read.

I'm not going to damage that reputation so one guy can use the site as a platform for his own view.

 

I have read every comment made in that blog and have no doubt that i made the right decision.

 

Hopefully people will understand. 

Comment by davo on March 9, 2011 at 6:45pm

I think it was unfortunate that Taffy was banned, but having said that, both John and Tami have the right to conduct their site the way they like. I was banned from SGP because I commented on some comments others made about universalism. Jason banned me from RCM because I robustly though amiably held a position on Isa 41:4 that was contrary to Sam’s position. I didn’t think such actions were necessary or very mature but site owners have that right and prerogative. Certain aspects of pantelism would be considered by some as hyper; the trouble is as I see it... whatever is considered “hyper” has been defined according to ROE’s rhetoric. It is possible to agree with some of it WITHOUT drawing or holding to the ultimate conclusions he’s been drawn to. Anyway it’s all grist for the mill IMO.

 

Norm, perhaps you should post this over on Taffy’s site and generate some discussion there as well.

Comment by Norm on March 9, 2011 at 7:17pm

Davo,

 

I tried to work with Taffy but he was presenting what appeared at first glance as toxic to the Christian viewpoint.  Ken seems to think he doesn't teach in the same vein as ROE and I would agree to a point. That was what we were attempting to pull out of him but it was like trying to pull teeth getting him to address some issues that would help bring clarity to the situation. Maybe you and Ken can take Taffy under your wings and teach him the finer points of internet interaction. ;-)

Taffy seems to frame so much as a black and white issues from his point of view which is understandable for one convinced in their own mind but not easily dealt with when it comes to personal interaction.

 

I don't know about taking this to Taffy's site, he might make an example out of me. LOL

Comment by davo on March 9, 2011 at 7:20pm
Yeah no worries... these were just my thoughts.
Comment by Norm on March 9, 2011 at 7:27pm

Davo,

I think the biggest problem I have with allowing ROE on a site is he starts to dominate it and nothing else can get accomplished without him taking it over. Ask Michael Loomis about his experience and the same thing happened here and at Larry Siegle's site.

 

Comment by davo on March 9, 2011 at 7:45pm

Yeah Norm and I’m not disagreeing with you on that in that whenever ROE was confronted and left flat-footed on one of his propositions he simply reverted to his repetitious rhetoric ad nauseam without considering what was put to him – that demonstrated less than genuine concern for exploring the text/s etc, something he feigned was his specialty...

Comment by Tami on March 10, 2011 at 9:58am

Davo, you wrote: "whatever is considered “hyper” has been defined according to ROE’s rhetoric."

Not so with our operating definition which we use to enforce our policy against allowing the promotion of "hyper" here. I will copy what I posted on Todd's facebook page this morning to clarify:

 

Todd, when John said that Ward's article is the basis for the site's views [Todd had mentioned that he didn't see anything about the deity of Christ in Ward's article]  he was specifically referring to DID's firm stance against promoting what we call "hyper-preterism." We have a firm stance against promoting arianism as well. :) Re garding the case of "hyper-preterism" being discussed here, the individual maintains he is not "hyper-preterist" by his own definitions, and that is fine. His denial is neither here nor there as far as we are concerned however, as the definition we have provided for "hyper-preterism" serves our own purposes, and not his. :)

 

Blessings,

Tami

 

 

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