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More Correlation between Genesis and Revelation...

Fellow Covenant Creationists, and you too Manny. I would like to ask you all to consider the information I've presented in this post on AD70.NET. It will also contain some more links for further study.
I BELIEVE THIS IS OF EXTREME IMPORTANCE. 
It could play very favorably into the preterist and in my opinion by implication covenant creationism paradigm's.

How ever I must WARN YOU!!! Some of these conclusions will surely ruffle a few doctrinal feathers. Personally I don't care where the truth leads. We need to figure this out.
If what I'm seeing is correct. It will knock over the futurist house of cards in one simple blow. 

I pray that you guys consider consider this information I'm collecting and presenting on what I'm seeing in this John-Revelation Project by Dr. Warren Gage of Knox Theological Seminary. I've had a few email exchanges on this topic with him. He's a preterist. In the above link I posted his answer to my questions.

And now with this little video clip Bryan Davis sent me it seems to add another interesting layer of support to the thesis of what I've been seeing for the last 18 months.


This guy in the video basically suggests Genesis 01 is one story told two different ways. A poem, a story, a song. You say one thing two different ways. Which is what is supported by the John-Revelation Project in relation to my thesis of the evidence Warren Gage presented. Of which he said that Revelation and John could be speaking of the same 3 1/2 year period. But that he hadn't worked to substantiate it.

Genesis Chapter 01 and the Gospel of John and The Book of Revelation are both one story told two different ways?
Is this possible?
And I believe this will also add much weight to the Covenant Creation argument.

Views: 408

Comment by michael j loomis on May 14, 2012 at 5:34am

Tim...Matter of fact if you had time sometime this summer I'd actually fly up there for a weekend that we might be able to sit down and look at the ramifications of this. That and check out your church if I could...8-)

I've been wanting to get up there sometime before it gets too cold. And I just found a way to fly up there really inexpensively. Not sure if you'd have a day or two. But I'd still like to come up there for church and a little bit of fellowship.

Mike 

Comment by michael j loomis on May 14, 2012 at 5:43am

Of course I'd like to help out if I can around the farm too...8-)

Comment by Duncan McKenzie on May 14, 2012 at 1:06pm

Mike,

In my book I argue that Revellation is not talking about Jesus' ministry but about the last half of the seventieth week of Daniel (Jesus' ministry being the first half of that week).

Daniel’s Seventy Weeks

The primary source for the time of trial of three and a half is the seventy weeks of Daniel 9:24-27. The context of the seventy weeks—literally seventy sevens—has to do with the Jews and Jerusalem (“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city . . . ” Dan 9:24; cf. Rev. 11:2). The time period of three and a half is the last half of the seventieth seven.

In considering this time period, it is helpful to look at Daniel 9:26-27; these two verses present a juxtaposition of the activities of Christ and Antichrist (brackets mine).

 

26. [Christ] And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; [Antichrist] and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27. [Christ] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. [Antichrist] And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.

Daniel 9:26 and 27 parallel each other; that is, they each address the same two topics. The first part of each verse contains a reference to the killing of Messiah and the resulting end of the legitimacy of the sacrificial system

 

26.  And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off . . . .

 

27.  . . . in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering . . . .

 

The death of Jesus brought an end to the legitimacy of the sacrificial system (cf. Matt. 27:50-51; Heb. 10:11-18); it happened after seven and sixty-two weeks, Dan. 9:25 (i.e., after the sixty-ninth week, at the end of the first half of the seventieth week).

The second part of verses 26 and 27 contain a reference to the coming of the one who would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple; this would be the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week. This period of three and a half would be the time of the coming of Antichrist—the one who would make the Jewish nation desolate:

 

26.  . . . and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27.  . . . And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.

 

It is this last half of Daniel’s seventieth week that the time period of three and a half is referencing.

In the middle of the seventieth week, the Christ would be cut off and then the Antichrist would come and make the Jewish nation desolate (cf. Dan. 12:7). The last half of the seventieth week can thus be seen as either the time from AD 30 (when the Messiah was killed) to AD 70 (the defeat of the Antichrist) or as a three-and-a-half-year bookend at the conclusion of the seventieth week (Jesus’ three-and-a-half-year ministry at the beginning of the seventieth week being the other bookend). I refer to these two variations as the literal and symbolic uses of this time period.

The Antichrist and the Second Coming, volume II, 196-97

Comment by michael j loomis on May 14, 2012 at 5:34pm

Duncan, In your books, did you take into account that John and Revelation are direct parallelism's?

If so...Cool. If not, don't you think that might affect your interpretation?

Mike

Comment by Doug on May 14, 2012 at 6:06pm

Duncan,

I have always seen Christ being cut off in the midst of the week being His first 3 1/2 year ministry, and the end of the "weeK" (7 years) being the 3 1/2 years of the tribulation leading up to its climax in 70AD.

 

I don't know if you have thought about this, but when Jesus stood up in the temple and a scroll (scripture) was given Him to read, He chose as His reading Isaiah. Here is the account:

 

Luke 4:16

16And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,

18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
         BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
         HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
         AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
         TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

 

He was reading from Isaiah 61. What is often overlooked is that if one continues reading, you see that the latter half of Isaiah 61, where Jesus INTENTIONALLY closed the scroll and stopped reading, was the prophecy about His return with vengeance. Notice:

 

Isaiah 61, beginning in verse 2.

 

2To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord

And the day of vengeance of our God;

To comfort all who mourn,

To grant those who mourn in Zion,

Giving them a garland instead of ashes,

The oil of gladness instead of mourning,

The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.

So they will be called [d] oaks of righteousness,

The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.

Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins,

They will raise up the former devastations;

And they will repair the ruined cities,

The desolations of many generations.

Strangers will stand and pasture your flocks,

And foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers.

But you will be called the priests of the Lord;

You will be spoken of as ministers of our God.

You will eat the wealth of nations,

And in their [f]riches you will boast.

Instead of your shame you will have a double portion,

And instead of humiliation they will shout for joy over their portion.

Therefore they will possess a double portion in their land,

Everlasting joy will be theirs.

For I, the Lord, love justice,

I hate robbery [g]in the burnt offering;

And I will faithfully give them their recompense

And make an everlasting covenant with them.

Then their offspring will be known among the nations,

And their descendants in the midst of the peoples.

All who see them will recognize them

Because they are the offspring whom the Lord has blessed.

 

I believe this is no other event than the destruction of Jerusalem and the ushering in of the new covenant, in which the promises were transferred, by covenant, from the people of the law to the people of grace.

 

It was fulfilled as the second half of Christ's ministry.

Comment by michael j loomis on May 14, 2012 at 8:27pm

Hey Doug...Duncan. Not sure how you guys got on this topic. 

But what did you think about the original post and the information on AD70.NET? 

Did you guys get a chance to take a look at it?

Comment by Tim Martin on May 14, 2012 at 8:28pm

Mike,


I'll be here all summer. Let me know when you are coming...

Tim

Comment by Duncan McKenzie on May 14, 2012 at 9:57pm

Hey Doug,

Definitely similarities in our positon.  Here is something on the dreaded gap in the 70 weeks.

While a gap does exist in the last week, it is not the thousands of years between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week that dispensationalists claim.  Some preterists, in reaction to the huge gap proposed by dispensationalists, argue that there is no indication in the text of a gap between the first half and second half of Daniel’s last week.  With the aid of historical hindsight, however, it seems clear that the first half of the seventieth week ended when Jesus was cut off in AD 30 and the second half ended when Titus made the Jewish nation desolate in AD 70.  God was establishing and confirming the new covenant during this time.  During the first half of the seventieth week He established the new covenant through the death of Jesus.  During the second half He confirmed the new covenant by abolishing the old covenant Temple system.

What is essentially the same gap between the first and second half of Daniel’s seventieth week occurs in Isaiah 61:2.

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, because the Lord has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor; he has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord [fulfilled in Jesus’ ministry], and the day of vengeance of our God [fulfilled in Titus’ destruction].

Isaiah 61:1-2

In Luke 4:18-19 Jesus quotes this section of Isaiah up to the last half of vs. 2.  He stopped his reading at that point and left out the part that referred to “the day of vengeance of our God.”  The first half of Isaiah 61:2, “the acceptable year of the Lord” was being fulfilled in Jesus’ ministry.  The last half, “the day of vengeance” would be fulfilled some forty years later in Titus’ AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews into the nations.  Luke writes the following on this: “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled . . . and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.” (Luke 21:22, 24).

That the second half of Daniel’s seventieth week is separated from the first half is also shown by the fact that the last half of the seventieth week keeps showing up in Scripture as the time period of three-and-a-half right before the AD 70 Second Coming (cf. Dan. 7:21-25).  This last half of Daniel’s seventieth week would be the period when the Antichrist would overcome the Jews/saints (Dan. 7:25; Rev. 13:5-7).  It would be the time of the great tribulation; it would end with the resurrection at the time of the destruction of the Jewish nation (Dan. 12:1-7).  This hardly fits AD 33, which would be the end of the seventy weeks if there was no gap between Messiah being cut off and the coming of the one who would make the Jewish nation desolate.

In addition to the above points, the purpose of the seventy weeks was related to the Jews and Jerusalem (Dan. 9:24).  It was AD 70 (not AD 33) that accomplished the destruction of Jerusalem and the shattering of the power of Daniel’s people (Dan. 12:7).  Furthermore, the events that the seventy weeks were to complete (“To finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.” Dan. 9:24) were fulfilled at the Second Coming in AD 70 not in AD 33.

Comment by Duncan McKenzie on May 14, 2012 at 10:10pm

Mike,

I would be interested if you can direct me to a summary of the parallels.  It should be noted that Revelation also parallels Ezekiel.  Revelation actually follows the topical outline of Ezekiel, but that does not mean they are talking about the same time.

Revelation 1-----------------Ezekiel 1

Revelation 4-----------------Ezekiel 1

Revelation 5-----------------Ezekiel 2

Revelation 6-----------------Ezekiel 5-7

Revelation 7:1-2-------------Ezekiel 7:2-3

Revelation 7-8 --------------Ezekiel 9-10

Revelation 10---------------Ezekiel 2-3

Revelation 10-13------------Ezekiel 11-14 (echoes)

Revelation 11:1-2-----------Ezekiel 40

Revelation 13:11-18---------Ezekiel 14

Revelation 17---------------Ezekiel 16, 23

Revelation 18---------------Ezekiel 26-28

Revelation 19:11-21---------Ezekiel 29, 32 (39)

Revelation 20:1-3-----------Ezekiel 29, 32

Revelation 20:4-6-----------Ezekiel 37

Revelation 20:7-10----------Ezekiel 38:1-39:20

Revelation 20:11-15---------Ezekiel 39:21-29

Revelation 21-22------------Ezekiel 40-48

See the entire article on this at

http://planetpreterist.com/content/revelations-extensive-use-sequen...

Comment by michael j loomis on May 14, 2012 at 11:06pm

Duncan, The link to all of the information you need is in the original post. But I guess you would have known that if you would have done what I asked...8-)

Here it is again: http://ad70.net/genesis-chapter-one-must-read-and-watch-and-l

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