O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

More Evidence for Gentiles on the Ark?


1 Corinthians 9:8-10 (ESV)

8Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain." Is it for oxen that God is concerned? 10Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.


We know that the oxen in this passage is talking about real four legged animals. Yet, Paul states that it was not for the sake of the animal that this law was given. God is not concerned about the oxen (four footed animals that make great steaks.)


Genesis 8:1 (YLT)

 1And God remembereth Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle which [are] with him in the ark, and God causeth a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters subside,


Here it seems that God is concerned with the "cattle" (four footed animals that make great steaks) or could it be that God is really concerned about Gentiles? If you notice the entire Flood account the "cattle" are included as a separate entity along with Noah and "every living thing".  God wanted to save them, specifically. Is it because he is concerned about four footed animals (and Paul is wrong) or is He concerned about Gentiles?


Very interesting...


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Comment by MoGrace2u on August 18, 2011 at 11:13am

You seem to be mixing apples and oranges a bit here.  Moses has already made an application by using this proverb in Deut 25:4 as it concerns the judge who issues the command that a wicked man be beaten.  And Paul uses his application that the judge is not strictly required to beat the man with the entire 40 stripes but can use his discretion tempered with mercy to determine how many stripes are needed, so that both the sinning plowman who hopes for mercy in his punishment and the judge who deals it out may both partake in the same hope of mercy from God - who commanded that while 40 stripes is the limit - mercy can guide the judge to give him less.  With that understanding in mind, Paul applies the same principle to how the worker has hope in being able to partake of the efforts of his labor.  So Paul isn't the one who put the ox for the man, Moses did that already.  And Paul uses the illustration for a different but similar application.

But when telling the story of Noah, Moses made no such application regarding the cattle.  Nor does any NT writer that I am aware of.

Comment by JL Vaughn on August 18, 2011 at 4:57pm



Cattle (Rabbis) are clean.  Sheep & goats (Jews) are clean.  Dogs (Gentiles) are unclean.  Serpents (Scribes and Pharisees) are clean on the outside, but unclean on the inside.


Don't fall for Bennett's false claims that all animals are Gentiles.  He knows better and needs to repent.  :)





Comment by Doug on August 18, 2011 at 9:02pm



Actually, have you ever handled snakes? They are pretty nasty even on the outside! Handle a snake and then smell your hands. You would wish you hadn't! :0


But, I hear they taste like chicken - and that's clean!

Comment by kmichael on August 20, 2011 at 7:14pm
Here in WV there are some snake handling churches back in the deep woods. Worth the price of admission.
Comment by JL Vaughn on August 22, 2011 at 12:23pm



Last time I had rattlesnake for dinner was 6 or 7 years ago.  My son saw it crawl under a wood floor tent at summer camp.  The skin is still hanging from the troop flag.


It was quite interesting.  The snake was still wiggling for a couple hours after the head was cut off.  Four hours HCO, we gutted it, the heart was still beating.  Skinned it and cooked it.  Everybody got a bite.


Like all rattlers I've had a bite or two of in the past, it tastes like alligator.  Texture wise, a little rubbery, more so than alligator, but less so than eel, and no where near as rubbery as squid or octopus.


Oh and alligators (and rattlers) taste more like chicken than they do beef, lamb, pork, or turkey.

Comment by Allyn Morton on August 22, 2011 at 5:23pm
Doug made the comment that snakes stink and even though we have a varity of those slithering creatures whose hips always touch the ground Iam most familiar with the garden variety who give off such a bad smell that it is very much like the odor of a corpse. Like Indy, I hate snakes!!
Comment by Michael Bennett on August 22, 2011 at 5:49pm

Guys, I don't have any problem with looking into things, but (for just one example)...One of the things I have read by CC believers are some of the comments on Genesis 9:5. See, the animals are being held accountable, therefore, they are really people! Must be symbolic! Micah Martin said: One of the key insights for me to the idea that the "animals" where people is in Gen. 9:5 "And for your lifeblood I will surely demand and accounting. I will demand and accounting from every ANIMAL. And from each MAN, too, I will demand and accounting for the life of his fellow man." Under a strict YEC reading that means when a lion eats a handicapped deer, God is going to judge that lion. Not the point of the Bible in my opinion. 

Genesis 9 5 And for your (<= A MANS) lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

Folks, for example, if you stop inserting your imagination, use hermeneutic rules, and in this case, read the law in Exodus. It is the same law in Genesis that we find in Exodus. So the question would be is this about real animals in Exodus.  My hunch is that most of you agree that the Exodus account is literal.

Matthew Henry Commentary Genesis 9:5 To show how tender God was of the life of man, though he had lately made such destruction of lives, he will have the beast put to death that kills a man. This was confirmed by the law of Moses (Ex. 21:28) Exodus 21 12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.28 "If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible. 29 If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull must be stoned and the owner also must be put to death.

Folks, I am open to symbolic interpretation of Genesis more than you think.  But it needs to make more sense in my opinion.  That's all.  Hope you are all well.

Comment by JL Vaughn on August 22, 2011 at 8:44pm



Please tell me that you've never heard extreme differences of opinion between full preterists on the meaning of various passages in Revelation or even the Olivet discourse?  In the 10 years I've been an online preterist, the views have been converging.  I can only imagine how much greater the variation was in the 30-some years before.


"[R]ead the law in Exodus. It is the same law in Genesis..."  Funny you say that.  You got that from Covenant Creation.  Yet you are a founder and a current administrator for a website that was formed for the express purpose of disproving CC and proving "a strict YEC reading."  We were banned from that discussion from before the creation.  Much of the claims made by you and others over there are just plain false.


But then, how would you have known your claims were false?  You were given a substantial draft nearly a full year before the book came out.   But it was more important for you to attack us and pass the draft off to others than it was for you to actually read our words.  We gave up waiting for your promised comments.


"If you stop inserting your imagination," you will see that we are using the very same hermeneutic rules the were used to develop Covenant Eschatology.  Covenant Creation is no more symbolic and just as literal as Covenant Eschatology.


Is Covenant Eschatology a "symbolic interpretation" of the Olivet Discourse?  What does your website say about Genesis Creation?  You are more open to what?  Officially, you are not open to anything but the failed Seventh-Day Adventist / dispensational agenda.


If you are sincere, then read the book, comment on the book, and correct the 3 years of falsehoods about the book that you've posted on your website.

Comment by Norm on August 22, 2011 at 10:54pm

Excerpts from The Enoch Dream Vision which is highly messianic Jewish Second Temple literature composed around 200 BC.  They tell the story of redemption with the most startling of all illustrations. They use the Biblical animals from Genesis 1,2 and 9 to denote the faith seed lineage of Christ denoted by white bulls and sheep and the Nations as represented by the beast of the fields and the birds of the Air.


Enoch : And again I saw with mine eyes as I slept, and I saw the heaven above, and behold a star fell from heaven, and it arose and eat and pastured amongst those oxen. 2. And after that I saw the large and the black oxen, and behold they all changed their stalls and pastures and their cattle, and began to live with each other. 3. And again I saw in the vision, and looked towards the heaven, and behold I saw many stars descend and cast themselves down from heaven to that first star, and they became bulls amongst those cattle and pastured with them ⌈amongst them

And one of those four went to that white bull and instructed him in a secret, without his being terrified: he was born a bull and became a man, and built for himself a great vessel and dwelt thereon; and three bulls dwelt with him in that vessel and they were covered in. … And the water, the darkness, and mist increased upon it; and as I looked at the height of that water, that water had risen above the height of that enclosure, and was streaming over that enclosure, and it stood upon the earth. 5. And all the cattle of that enclosure were gathered together until I saw how they sank and were swallowed up and perished in that water. 6. But that vessel floated on the water, while all the oxen and elephants and camels and asses sank to the bottom with all the animals, so that I could no longer see them, and they were not able to escape, (but) perished and sank into the depths. 7. And again I saw in the vision till those water torrents were removed from that high roof, and the chasms of the earth were levelled up and other abysses were opened. 8. Then the water began to run down into these, till the earth became visible; but that vessel settled on the earth, and the darkness retired and light appeared. 9. But that white bull which had become a man came out of that vessel, and the three bulls with him, and one of those three was white like that bull, and one of them was red as blood, and one black: and that white bull departed from them.

10. And they began to bring forth beasts of the field and birds, so that there arose different genera: lions, tigers, wolves, dogs, hyenas, wild boars, foxes, squirrels, swine, falcons, vultures, kites, eagles, and ravens; and among them was born a white bull.

Enoch again: And I stood up to see till they folded up that old house; and carried off all the pillars, and all the beams and ornaments of the house were at the same time folded up with it, and they carried it off and laid it in a place in the south of the land. 29. And I saw till the Lord of the sheep brought a new house greater and loftier than that first, and set it up in the place of the first which had beer folded up: all its pillars were new, and its ornaments were new and larger than those of the first, the old one which He had taken away, and all the sheep were within it. 30. And I saw all the sheep which had been left, and all the beasts on the earth, and all the birds of the heaven, falling down and doing homage to those sheep and making petition to and obeying them in every thing.


Comment by Norm on August 22, 2011 at 10:56pm


contnued from above

Dan 7:26-27  But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.  (27)  And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'


The Hebrews had many ways to tell the story of the coming messiah and one of the most popular was the book of Enoch [around 200BC] which dramatically illustrates the animal metaphor denoting the clean and the unclean animals coming forth from the Ark together.  The clean bulls and sheep were surrounded by the unclean animals of the Nations but at the end during the messianic judgment according to Enoch all the unclean and clean animals would bow down and just as Gen 1 and 9 and Daniel illustrates the remnant faithful would lead and instruct the Nations.


Gen 1:28-29  And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."  (29)  And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.


Gen 9:1-3  And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.  (2)  The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered.  (3)  Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.


Eze 47:9  And wherever the river goes, every living creature that swarms will live, and there will be very many fish. For this water goes there, that the waters of the sea may become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.


Enoch again: And those sheep were all white, and their wool was abundant and clean. 33. And all that had been destroyed and dispersed, and all the beasts of the field, and all the birds of the heaven, assembled in that house, and the Lord of the sheep rejoiced with great joy because they were all good and had returned to His house.

And I saw that a white bull was born, with large horns and all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air feared him and made petition to him all the time. 38. And I saw till all their generations were transformed, and they all became white bulls; and the first among them became a lamb, and that lamb became a great animal and had great black horns on its head; and the Lord of the sheep rejoiced over it and over all the oxen.


You gots to know your biblical literature. ;-)



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