Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

This seems to be an interesting article concerning the on going discussion about Mr.Adam. 

Pre-Adamite Populations?

One of the questions raised by the evolutionary view of human origins is where, exactly to place Adam and the origin of the human race created in the image of God. Were there pre-Adamic humans? Are or were some “humans” (however we define human evolutionarily) not created in the image of God? However, this isn’t only a problem for evolutionary biology. It cropped up before evolution came into the picture, although it is clear that evolution muddies the waters even more. What are we to make of Neanderthals? Denisovans? Other populations we are yet to discover? Modern genetics tells us that these populations of hominids have contributed to the genetic make-up of segments of modern humans, but not all humans.

Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2014/08/07/pre-adamite-popu...

Views: 1499

Comment by william f. on August 8, 2014 at 1:45am

this is what im trying to get to the bottom of.....other people before and during adam......my take on sin as sophomoric as it may be is that when adam disobeyed God it caused his sin death.....so when others after him sin they would suffer the same seperation from God and to say this is to say that everyone is born innocent until the age of accountability and then they sin......childish is sounds but here is where i stand.....lol......this stuff is all new to me......I was just getting a steady grasp of understanding the resurrection  in preterism then this was put on my plate, but Im willing to take it on.......Lord Bless you all......its finally good to type from a desktop....im usually on my smart phone....lol.....

Comment by JL Vaughn on August 8, 2014 at 6:38pm

William,

The Hebrew Bible makes a distinction between Adam (usually translated man) and ish (usually translated man).  If Adam doesn't mean man, but rather means Adam's descendants, or those in Adam's covenant, then that is a translation error.

We don't need to worry about Neanderthals and Denisovans.  What about the other people who lived near Adam at the time Adam lived in the garden?  They were not in Adam.  They were not guilty of Adam's sin.  Some of them were even used by God to drive Adam out of the garden.  They participated in God's judgment of Adam, much like Nebuchadnezzar did some 3000 years later.

Comment by william f. on August 9, 2014 at 4:40am

in laymen terms i just like to say that God chose to call a people to whom He might want to make his abode with and that happen to be the nation of israel.....seems like its just like today....there is people in covenant with God thru the blood of Jesus and there are those that are not in covenant with Him...did those during adam time had a chance to be in covenant with Yahweh....this stuff is really interesting and im wondering if I should continue in it......tackling Preterism(covenant eschatology; esp the resurrection) was hard enough now this is on my plate.....

Comment by Internet_Troll on August 9, 2014 at 7:37am

JL Vaughn wrote:

 They were not in Adam.  They were not guilty of Adam's sin.

I was always under the impression that people were being redeemed from sin death brought by Adam i.e. in Adam all die but in Christ all are made alive. Similarly I understood the resurrection as coming out of Adam into Christ. Now, If there were people who were not in Adam and not guilty of Adam's sin, do they have any part in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Comment by JL Vaughn on August 11, 2014 at 11:26am

Yes Jesus,

A New Covenant with a new people.

Think about it, "In Adam all die."  Is this a universal?

"In Christ, all are made alive."  If the first "all" was a universal, then why isn't this "all" also universal.

Everyone in Adam, died in Adam.  Everyone in Christ was made alive in Christ.

Comment by Internet_Troll on August 13, 2014 at 2:21am

JL,

 

I see what you mean about a new covenant people.

The other part of the question is where people outside of Adam got sin and death from, if at all. Since Paul talks  only of people in Adam, Im just trying to understand where those out of Adam got sin from.

 

 

Comment by Doug on August 13, 2014 at 8:43am

JL,

I too have the same question as JIR.

After all, if there are really two categories of humans, those who sinned "in Adam" and those who are just (for lack of a better term) "just plain sinners", but whose ancestors are not counted in the genealogy of Adam, then we have a problem.

JL, you stated that these "others" helped drive Adam out of the garden. Where do you get your information? Your statement also implies that since those others did not participate in Adam's sin, then they either were not sinners at all, or were in some other kind of sin category.

Furthermore, the future implications of this idea are that sinners who did not sin "in Adam" cannot be made alive in Christ. That means that there are people walking around right now who will not respond to the call of the gospel, since they are not dead in Adam.

Of course, this fixes the problem of those who never heard or who never get an opportunity to hear the gospel. It means that they will never have salvation (as we have it). If this is what you are saying, then you are opening up a whole new can of worms, but you are also explaining why the gospel isn't effective to lots of humans.

I have a problem with this because the gospel writers had a problem with it. They were told to go into all the world, preaching the gospel to all people. Your ideas mean that we don't have to go to the whole world, because the whole world will not or cannot respond, since they never were in Adam's sin.

Please explain how you can work around such objections, since the gospel's fundamental aim is to all people, without distinction. 

Comment by John on August 13, 2014 at 1:45pm

Doug,

I'm not seeing the problem...To sin you had to be under the law. This was the Old Covenant that God had made with Adam and his ancestors (Israel),under the New we're no longer under the law and come to Christ through faith.All are invited into the New Covenant no matter what nation or peoples.

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

The Bible says very little IMO about those who never hear the gospel.

 "The truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God" (Romans 1:19-20, New Living Translation).

Comment by Doug on August 13, 2014 at 2:39pm

JJ,

Well, the problem as I see it is that IF there were "other" people besides Adam, then those others did not have a covenant made with them.

The NT says that as in Adam ALL die, ALL in Christ are made alive. Therefore, I have to conclude two thigns.

1. IF you died "in Adam", then you can be made alive in Christ

2. If you did NOT "die in Adam" (which would be those who did not have a covenant made with them originally at the outset of the covenant world), then how can you be made alive in Christ?

So when we are talking the original sin of Adam, that original sin did not apply to those who were not "covenant men". It only applied to those whom God was working through (i.e. Adam and Eve and their progeny)

OTOH, we have to consider this question very carefully. If we make the "original sin" to be one that is passed down genetically, then and only then would one be able to accept Christ IF they "genetically" are related to Adam. But if Adam became the head representative of ALL men, whether or not they were in covenant with God at the garden, then how is covenantal life OR death imparted to men with whom God never had any dealings?

This is a real conundrum, because talking about "other men" who may have existed prior to and maybe contemporaneously with, Adam, makes this a question of race and whether the covenant was made with people racially. But, if the covenant was not made with regard to race, then how was the sin passed on to other men, if not through Adam's original sin? Yet, we do see a racial component of the old covenant. We see Israel being the "chosen people", and it was based on race, although anyone could become a Jew if they chose to. The outward sign of that would have been circumcision, yet the genetics inside would have never changed.

You mentioned Romans 1:20, but that only explains general revelation about God. It does not explain the special revelation or the "choosing" of God towards His special vessels. Those whom God chooses are offered eternal life. Simply knowing God exists isn't the same thing as being called and chosen.

Comment by Internet_Troll on August 14, 2014 at 1:21pm

Doug,

I couldn't have said it better.

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