Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Preterism - Defining Various Positions

In my last attempt to clarify preterist views, most did not like my split diagram approach.  I decided to delete that post and create a new (recommended by a few) one.  In this approach I utilize a simple chart in which key events can be defined as Past, Ongoing, Future, Possible, or N/A.  I would like and hope that several of you help me out here.  Simply copy the text at the bottom of the post and put when you think the event is happening or happened.  If you want to clarify, or add definitions, or ask questions great.  Also please post what position you hold - Pantelist, FP-CBV, FP-IBD, PP, etc. If I need to add a key event or position, let me know.

 

If you disagree with what I put, great.  Just let me know how you see it.  If something is "ongoing" and not "past" just let me know.  I am extremely flexible here.  Even "?" is valid.

 

Thanks in advance,

Patrick

 


 

TEXT VERSION:

 

The Great Tribulation                     PAST

A Tribulation c. 66-70 AD               N/A

 

The Second Coming                      PAST

A Second Coming c.70 AD             N/A

 

The Parousia                                PAST

A Parousia c.70AD                        N/A

 

The Day of the Lord                      PAST

A Day of the Lord                          N/A

 

Mill 1:  The Reign of the Saints       PAST

Mill 2: Binding of Satan                  PAST

Binding of Satan in the Abyss         PAST

Release of Satan from Abyss         PAST

Battle of God and Magog (Rev)     PAST

Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire     PAST

 

The Resurrection (Corporate)        PAST

The Resurrection (Individual)         ONGOING

The Rapture (catching up)             ONGOING

Great White Throne Judgment       PAST

Judgment (Individual)                    ONGOING

New H&E Established                   PAST

Saints dwell in the New H&E         ONGOING

Old Earth (Type) passed away      PAST

Old Earth (Literal) passed away    N/A

Old Earth (Covental) pass away    PAST

God "All in all"                              PAST

Type of Resurrection                    CBV

All Prophecy Fulfilled                    YES

 

SSB = Self Same Body    

IBD = Immortal Body of Death  

CBV = Corporate Body View      

Views: 200

Comment by Patrick on March 23, 2011 at 10:14pm
Note: on "my view" the Resurrection of individuals is a "NA", not Ongoing.  The "rapture" is what is ongoing.
Comment by Allyn Morton on March 25, 2011 at 8:19pm

Hi Patrick, Sorry for being dumb but what is the difference to you between the resurrection ongoing and the rapture ongoing?

Thanks

Comment by Patrick on March 25, 2011 at 9:22pm

I define "death" as being without a physical body.

 

Those who were righteous "dead" were given a physical body - thus resurrected.

 

Those who are righteous "alive", one day shed their earthly corruptible physical body and immediately receive their new body...thus they are never "die."  I believe NJ is currently in the "air", and that we are still in the Day of the Lord, therefore when we shed this corruptible body we are "caught up" into the air to meet the Lord in the air.  This is the rapture-ongoing.

Comment by Allyn Morton on March 25, 2011 at 9:54pm
Patrick, that is a very cool and interesting interpretation.
Comment by cynthia mahan ray on March 25, 2011 at 10:05pm
Thank you for taking the time to make this detailed chart.  The only thing I miss about being a Dispy is that they had such great charts!  Just kidding.  I'm laminating my copy for reference.
Comment by Patrick on March 25, 2011 at 10:51pm
You are right Cynthia, I loved Dispy charts too.  I have quite a collection of books...including, of course, Clarence Larkins who made wonderful charts of the end-times.   Thus why my website has some chart on almost every page.
Comment by JL Vaughn on March 27, 2011 at 8:04pm

Patrick,

 

FP-CBV

 

The Great Tribulation                     PAST

A Tribulation c. 66-70 AD               N/A

 

Tribulation nominally from James' death in AD 62 or 63 until the fall of Jerusalem.

 

The Second Coming                      PAST

A Second Coming c.70 AD             N/A

 

I don't know what N/A means in this context, the previous one or the next two.  We certainly believe these things occurred.

 

The Parousia                                PAST

A Parousia c.70AD                        N/A

 

The Day of the Lord                      PAST

A Day of the Lord                          N/A

 

The Resurrection (Corporate)        PAST

The Resurrection (Individual)         ONGOING

The Rapture (catching up)             ONGOING

Great White Throne Judgment       PAST

Judgment (Individual)                    ONGOING

New H&E Established                   PAST

Saints dwell in the New H&E         ONGOING

Old Earth (Type) passed away      PAST

 

I can't find either an individual resurrection, nor an individual judgment in Scripture.  The "Rapture" is a misunderstanding of the text and is past.  The New H&E was established in AD 70 and continues forever.

 

Old Earth (Literal) passed away    N/A

Old Earth (Covental) pass away    PAST

Covenant is literal.  That is how that generation literally understood the text.

 

God "All in all"                              PAST

What does this mean?
Comment by Patrick on March 28, 2011 at 8:52am

THANKS JL!  You are the first to actually reply with some answers (although Todd Dennis has been helping out). 

 

A few answers to your questions and questions of my own:

1)  By N/A I was simply saying "a" second coming is not applicable b/c we believe it was THE second coming.  This is opposed to PP and futurism.

2)  In FP-CBV, the resurrection of the individual is simply salvation, correct?  Therefore it is ongoing.

If I misunderstand or misrepresent the view, PLEASE let me know.

3) You have "the rapture is a misunderstanding of scripture is PAST" yet in the spreadsheet you have "ONGOING" for the rapture.  Would you like me to put "PAST" for "the rapture" or maybe even N/A.

4)  God "all in all" - what does this mean?  1 Cor 15:28.  I define it differently than FP-CBV.  "All in all" TO ME is when all corruptible things (including the literal old earth) passes away and we are left with nothing but the incorruptible. 

 

Thanks again for taking the time to fill this out.  Patrick

Comment by JL Vaughn on March 28, 2011 at 10:59am

Patrick,

 

1) OK.  Wasn't clear.

2) Scripture does not use the word "resurrection" to discuss individuals.  This is a denial of proper hermeneutics, Scripture interprets Scripture.  The individual must come into the city.  Can we even show that "salvation" is a proper term for coming into the city?  Remember Taffy's question?  "What are we, today, saved from?"

 

In ancient times, cities were covenantally based.  Inside and outside was not a matter of being physically inside or outside the walls.  It was based on where your citizenship lied.  The walls did not define the city.  The walls were the "metaphor."  The patron god of that city, the law of that city, and the government of that city protected the citizens.  The wall was secondary.  The wall represented the physical boundaries of that god's, law's, and government's protection.

 

Think about it.  If the modern US concept of law applied, then aliens and slaves who were in the city would have also been protected.  The Jews would not have been able to persecute Christians to "the ends of the earth."

 

Christians were literally "not of this world," because they denied the patron god of their city and forfeited the protection of that city's patron, laws, and government.  That is why they were called atheists.  That is why they could be persecuted and killed with impunity.

 

Those inside the city's covenant were citizens.  Those outside were slaves or barbarians.  Being physically inside the walls was irrelevant except that it was easier for a government to force its will inside the walls than it was outside.

 

This "salvation" is not an individual resurrection.  It is the process of becoming covenantally bound to the already existing New Jerusalem.  Therefore N/A would be correct.

 

3) N/A is likely more appropriate than PAST.  I'd like some discussion on this.

4) This goes back to my extended point in #2 above.  I've not seen any discussion on this in the CBV camp.  God "became" "all in all" in the past and still is "all in all."  PAST could imply that God is no longer "all in all."  ONGOING could imply that God is right now "becoming" "all in all."

 

Blessings,

 

Jeff

Comment by Patrick on March 28, 2011 at 12:20pm

Thanks JL,   couple questions:

 

Regarding #2)  If the resurrection of saints today is "the process of becoming covenantally bound to the already existing New Jerusalem,"  this would be "Ongoing" correct?  If it is PAST, then how are people covenantally bound today?

 

Regarding #3) How does the FP-CBV define "the rapture" or "the catching up".  1The 4:17

 

Regarding #4)  I don't think PAST would imply God is no longer all in all, but the fulfillment of 1 Cor 15:28 occurred in the past and that he is still All in All.  If you have a short term that works better, I'm All for it, though. 

 

Thanks for the detailed feedback...Patrick

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