Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Rev 20:7-10 (Post Millennium)?

Recently a discussion was brought up by a good friend concerning Duncan and Doug W.’s Premillennial Preterism on a closed forum I belong to. I typically have to stay away from these detailed discussions because they require a lot of energy, thought and time to enter into intelligently.  Against my better judgment I decided to enter in even though I don’t have the time and energy I used to be able to allocate to these issues. Partially this is because I’m not giving Duncan and Doug a fair hearing if I can’t commit myself seriously to their ideas in a discussion. So I will hang this warning out there that I’ll going to be doing the best I can by attempting to depend upon my past studies and some casual brushing up as I seek clarification and perhaps challenge some of their concepts here and there. But mostly I’m open to hear ideas.

Make no bones about it though that I truly respect and appreciate Duncan and Doug as brothers in Christ and as extremely serious students of the word. That’s about all that anyone can ask of people in these discussion.

I’m posting my response below to what I have briefly read and so expect errors from my possible misunderstandings of Duncan and Doug’s position. In fact the purpose of this post is to hopefully derive some clarification and allow for a little more robust discussion in which we can all become more enlightened. Keep in mind my presentation is in response to an invite to consider their ideas.

Here we go.

“I took a look at what Duncan and Doug W were presenting and I don't have a problem with Duncan's analysis of Rev 20:4 & 11-15 being a continuation of the first millennium Judgment scene. I don't think it materially really changes the way I understand Rev 20:7-10 though as it seems inconsequential to the end result from my present viewpoint that I laid out previously. (I’ve posted my first response below) I do question Duncan's usage of judgment occurring at the beginning of the millennium because that's a semantic inclusion that is problematic. Essentially Judgment ended at the conclusion of the millennium whether it begins earlier or not so it's kind of a semantic arguable issue in my mind to present it that way.

Here is what I'm referring to.

"Russell thus sees the description of the throne scene begun in Revelation 20:4 as being continued in Revelation 20:11. This would mean that these two sections are actually describing one throne scene (which happens at the beginning of the millennium, cf. Matt. 25:31-46), not two. Russell writes the following on this:" (my emphasis nv)

What I'm really interested in is how any of this changes the way you understand Rev 20:7-10 for Post AD70 application. I have made the case earlier that Judgment upon Israel is followed by judgment upon the Nations. I believe that is what Eze 37,38 & 39 present and I also believe that is what Isa 33,34 & 35 present as well by using different examples for National judgment illustrations. I also see Rev adhering to those standards of first judgment and completion upon Israel and then immediately following we have judgment upon the Nations. Rev 19 is a very good example of that pattern which affirms Israel's redemption and recognition; then the invitation to feast at the supper which sees the slaughter of the Nations through the "sharp sword". This sword is the word that comes from the "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" and is the Battle equipment being used. This is the same repeated sequence we see again in Rev 20:7-10 simply being repeated briefly. That is why since it has been fully completed through Israel's redemption that the Word is a sword that will forever defeat the enemies of God whomever the Nations may futility attempt to raise up to defeat God's Heavenly city. That is why Satan is loosed only for a little while to demonstrate that the Nations have no power because the New government resides in the Heavens and is eternal and never ending. The battle essentially is over before it begins.

Now I know I'm going to have a difficult time keeping folks away from a literal physical short battle that happened somewhere or that they think perhaps it is continual and ongoing and that nuanced discussion could be interesting. That is why I would be interested in seeing how Duncan and Doug wrestle with their conclusions and how you would work through it as well.

I would say I didn't grasp their difference amounting to much that changes anything except that Duncan may have outlined Rev 20 in a more substantial manner that is helpful. I also don't grasp the significant difference in what they are calling Premillennial Preterism because it doesn't seem clearly defined. If it means the Judgment is over by the time of the Parousia then it appears to be a limited difference without much consequence. Now if they postulate that National judgments are ongoing then that could be an interesting discussion. Since Duncan ascribes to 1948 and Doug doesn't understand corporate body view then I'm much more interested in how you are picturing things.

Here are some verses that reference the same language that is being used in Rev 19 & 20 for comparison.

Blessings

Norm

Eze 38:21-22  I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Lord GOD. Every man's sword will be against his brother.  (22)  With pestilence and bloodshed I will enter into judgment with him, and I will rain upon him and his hordes and the many peoples who are with him torrential rains and hailstones, fire and sulfur.

Eze 39:17-18  "As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD: Speak to the birds of every sort and to all beasts of the field, 'Assemble and come, gather from all around to the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you, a great sacrificial feast on the mountains of Israel, and you shall eat flesh and drink blood.  (18)  You shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth--of rams, of lambs, and of he-goats, of bulls, all of them fat beasts of Bashan.

Rev 19: 15  Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16  On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18  so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." 19  Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20  But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21  The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Rev 20:8-9  and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.  (9)  And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

Isa 33:20-21  Behold Zion, the city of our appointed feasts! Your eyes will see Jerusalem, an untroubled habitation, an immovable tent, whose stakes will never be plucked up, nor will any of its cords be broken.  (21)  But there the LORD in majesty will be for us a place of broad rivers and streams, where no galley with oars can go, nor majestic ship can pass.

Isa 34:1  Draw near, O nations, to hear, and give attention, O peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it. … 6  The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom.

Isa 35:8-9  And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray.  (9)  No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast come up on it; they shall not be found there, but the redeemed shall walk there.

 

Here was my First response.

 

My AT&T thought on the following verses is that indeed the consummation has occurred at verse 6. There are a couple of possibilities in my mind so far. First I believe the 1000 years was the 40 year period until the Parousia and the loosing may be more symbolic than actual because after ad 70 the only city that could be surrounded would be the eternal Heavenly Jerusalem populated with post Parousia faithful. It's not a literal battle but a spiritual battle and the Battle has actually already been won and the Nations fate sealed through Christ victory over all flesh spiritually by what had already emerged.

The defeating of the Nations is a consequence of what transpired previously, notwithstanding Kurt Simmons trying to conjure up every possible physical scenario he could muster to say the Nations got their due as well. I believe they did but it didn't take prophetic physical fulfillment against Rome to accomplish it. The only possible alternative would be if we consider the following verses as an ongoing judgment against the Nations but I tend to rule that out because I see the white throne judgment immediately. So I tend to believe that war against the nations has been won because of what Christ had already accomplished just prior. This is just a cleaning up action against the Nations if you will that is not represented by any physical battle because how can you fight a physical battle against the Heavenly Jerusalem? You can't! The Nations can surround the camp of believers all day and they are not going to prevail. I think that is the reality that the writer may be presenting concerning Gog and Magog. They have no power over God's people. I think the physicalness of the story throws us off as we know there was no battles to fit the scenario and we can't wrap our minds around it like perhaps the Jews might have.

Rev 20:7-10 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison (8) and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. (9) And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, (10) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Again this is my AT&T thoughts for the moment.                        

Blessings

Norm

 

Essentially I was impressed with Duncan’t outline of Rev 20 and its comparison with Dan 7 and he may be  and likely is correct.  However I had already considered that as a possibility in Rev 20 because of the Nature of the way Rev tells the same story and themes sometimes in ways in which we consider to be out of sequence. You simply have to keep those options open for consideration when studying Revelation.  

 

However the bottom line for me is that much of end time’s prophecy in the OT and its fulfillment in the NT are metaphorical to say the least. Anyone who is familiar with Ezekiel substantially realizes that even a literalist should have problems in making the land promises physical manifestations but they still do. However it never seems to amaze me how easy it is for even full Preterist who should know better to drift unconsciously back into a hybrid reading of the land fulfillment when they get a little confused. Let me point out that the more confusing a section is the more people tend to revert back to a default literal reading when they don’t tend to grasp the Hebrew mindset. That my friend is just human nature and reflects our tendency to fill the voids with something instead of just letting the fields of the mind lie fallow for a while. None of us tend to leave those fallow fields for fresh rain to fall on in due course; yours truly included.

What I’m concerned with and it may be completely unfounded is that I haven’t seen a robust description yet describing ongoing fulfillments occurring in this “Premillennial” time that we are apparently in as of now. My hunch will be that it is not going to be materially different than what most thoughtful full Preterist are already projecting to a degree. Also how is the judgment going to be different and have any significant consequences than what we find already laid out in scripture.  Perhaps we are debating timing and it’s ramification ultimately which is always interesting but just like full Preterist there needs to be accompanying analysis of what all this means for faithful followers.

For those who have Max King’s book “The Cross and the Parousia” you might want to turn to it and freshen up a bit from pages 234 -245 especially the earlier and later sections. I’m going to quote the last paragraph to illustrate some of my thoughts that coalesce with Max’s.

Quote from page 246-247. … “The fact that the “last hour” adversaries (Gog and Magog) are gathered to battle from the four quarters of the earth does not rule out Judea as the source of this Satanic operation.  Concerning the antichristian forces. John wrote.  “And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven , and devoured them” (Rev. 20:9).  Just as Gog and Magog are symbols of the “last hour” enemies of the church, the “camp of the saints” and the “beloved city” are terms borrowed from Jewish history to symbolize the new people of God on the face of the earth.  Satan’s attempt to extirpate the heavenly Jerusalem and the universalized church was countered with a consuming fire from God out of heaven. In like manner, Paul expressed the defeat of the man of sin.  “whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thess. 2:8).  The weapons of John’s end-time episodes do not consisted of guns, bombs, tanks, missiles, etc., as found in many modern day interpretations.  The artillery of John’s piece of eschatological history consisted of the “cross of Christ” and the “word of God,” with this banner of truth being carried by soldiers of Christ who “loved not their lives unto the death” (Rev 12:11).”

Most people likely don’t realize what Max was projecting or they forget it.(that book is hard) He is saying that Gog and Magog surrounding the “camp of the saints” are defeated by the “word of God” which is the Gospel account and the good News. Rev 20:7-8 is the short time after the end of the millennium judgment in which there are no physical battles but spiritual battles and God’s people will be the eternal victors. You can’t defeat the people who abide in the Heavenly City. People overlook this obvious point and simply don’t deal with it because they believe it must be a physical battle happening somewhere somehow someday. Again we revert back once again to the physical when we haven’t fully grasped the nuance of the spiritual story.

Blessings

Norm

Views: 204

Comments are closed for this blog post

Comment by Doug Wilkinson on June 5, 2012 at 6:00pm

Norm,

Thanks for putting serious thought into this.  For the past few weeks I've been reading through Duncan's new book that deals extensively with Revelation and the Millennium.  If you really want to engage what Duncan is doing there is no way to do so without reading through both of his books.  If you go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon be careful because since they are volume 1 and 2 of the same title there is some confusion on which book you are trying to get.  I think the two links below are the proper ones:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Antichrist-Second-Coming-Examination/dp/1...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Antichrist-Second-Coming-Examination/dp/1...

On the header of my site I describe our system as, "Premillennial Preterism says that the one and only Parousia occurred in 70AD, the Millennium is ongoing today, and the end is yet to come."  I am not more specific than that for a reason.  At this moment neither Duncan nor Gerald Haug (he was interviewed on AD70.net a while back but doesn't spend any time in blogs and such) nor I agree on every detail.  I'd prefer not to shrink the tent down too far until we've had time to flesh out the details of what we are saying (which is the stated purpose of my site).  Our core argument is that the Millennium couldn't have started earlier than the parousia because the Millennium is the beginning of the rule of the people who don't start ruling until they are resurrected at the parousia.    Most of the Full Preterist problem with that come from wanting to make the Millennium the reign of Christ that started in 30AD.  I think that Daniel 7 makes it clear that at the parousia (I don't know anyone who says that the events of at least the first and third portion of  Daniel 7 are the parousia) the kingdom is handed over to the saints to rule.  What does this mean?  I don't know exactly.  That and similar points are the type of fleshing out I'm hoping to prompt. 

As you pointed out, we don't agree on everything.  Duncan sees the 1948 regathering as a significant event and I don't.  I think we are pretty close on the resurrection issue.  It's not that I don't understand corporate resurrection at all, it's just that I think it's only one a of a number of concepts being pulled into the same term, so that it's not the exclusive definition of resurrection.  And, though Duncan and I agree that there is only one eschatologically climatic resurrection in scripture, Gerald is more conventional and has described two resurrections separated by 1,000 years (the conventional scheme) under the same Premillennial Preterist umbrella.  So, there's room to refine the position in a number of areas.

Thanks for taking what we're doing seriously enough to look into it.

Doug Wilkinson

Comment by Doug on June 5, 2012 at 7:29pm

I would like to weigh in on these questionsm, although I don't have firm opinions - yet... :)

One thing I haven't seen addressed yet by either you, DW, or you, Norm, is the (at least to me) obvious symbolic parallels between Daniel 12:1-2

1“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt"

 Now, compare this to Mt. 27:52-53

"52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."

 

A big question would be whether these two resurrections (the one in Daniel and the one in Matthew) are the same events? If you believe they are, then there are discrepancies.

First, the statement in Daniel that it will be a time of trouble such as has not been before. That is a CLEAR statement referring to the Parousia, right? If that is the case, then we cannot assume that the resurrection in Matthew is the same one spoken of by Daniel.

And yet, that opens the question to why there was a "general resurrection" that occurred in Matthew, and yet ANOTHER (spiritual) resurrection that occurred at the Parousia.  I am inclined to believe that these two resurrections are the same (first and second) resurrections spoken of in Revelation 20

"(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection."

 

The timing of "the rest of the dead" occurs at the end of the millenium. But there is a resurrection at the BEGINNING! So, could it be that the resurrection spoken of in Matthew 27 is the first resurrection pictured in Rev. 20? After all, verse 5 says:

"6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

So, if you believe that the millenium occurred starting at the resurrection of Christ, inaugurated by a general, physical resurrection of saints in the graves around Jerusalem, then fulfilled in its spiritual sense at Pentecost when the Spirit was breathed into the disciples and a great many received salvation, (and, BTW, are the ones referred to who are "blessed and holy" in Rev 20:5) and continued on until the consumation of all things, when judgment was pronounced on Jerusalem at the Parousia AND many more were resurrected (the second resurrection), then I think there is room to believe that the millenium occurred for that 40 year period, and that we are now in the post-millenial reign of Christ.

We who are in this post-millenial reign are those who continue to partake of the second resurrection as people are saved.

Now, all that said, I do not think there is a huge reason to argue for a millenial period now. Why? Because if you ascribe to a pre-millenial view, and believe that we are now in that millenial tie, then you have to deal with ANOTHER return of Christ. If you believe that, then where in scripture is that second coming found?  You have to somehow translate the spiritual symbols of Revelation back into physical symbols. When you do that, you end up literalizing Daniel and Revelation, and that damages the principles of good exegesis, that state that you must keep things in context to the audience and the time period spoken of.

Of course, I might be all wrong in all this. But unless I see some compelling scriptures that can honestly show one more coming, I will keep things as they are now. Thanks for listening.

Comment by Doug Wilkinson on June 5, 2012 at 8:00pm

I'll start by saying that you really need to buy both of Duncan's books.  He addresses everything you are asking about the in detail. 

For a summary from my point of view, I don't think that those risen in Matthew were the "general resurrection".  First, it doesn't say that all of the righteous dead were raised, it says many.  Then, it doesn't way what happened to them.  If they died again then they were resurrected just like Lazarus or any number of other people before that point, but were not "the resurrection", where they will not die again.  If they can't die and Ed Stevens is wrong, they are still running around.  If he's right, then they were snatched away, but I don't know many Full Preterists who like his work.  I don't think that those who were raised in Matthew 27 were associated in any way with Daniel 12.  Daniel 12 has to do with the judgment against Israel.  Unless you can find a way to historically fit the invasion of Israel and wearing out of the saints into the ministry of Christ then they can't be the same thing. 

As far as the first resurrection goes, the members of that resurrection are the martyred Christians who were killed by the Beast for not taking his mark (we like to expand this to all Christians in practice, but technically it only has to be the martyrs).  Other than those who suggest that the Beast had been functional throughout history I don't know anyone who thinks the Beast was attacking the good guys until the 3 1/2 wrapping up the 70th Week of Daniel.  If those in the first resurrection are martyred some time after 66AD (presuming preterism is correct that the 70th Week of Daniel concluded in 70AD) then those raised in Matthew 27 can't be part of the first resurrection.

When you ask for references to an additional "coming" of Christ, I'd answer that Rev. 20:7-10 is that passage.  However, I'm not stipulating to your vocabulary on this (using the term "coming" as in a third coming) because he would have been present (in his parousia) throughout the entire period including the Gog/Magog war.  You might say that this is an additional Day of the Lord, which is probably true given how the vocabulary in the OT is used.  It's the end times, or time of the end, of Gog and Magog.  The end times, or time of the end, can apply to any corporate group.  Persia had their through Greece in Daniel 8.  Israel had hers through Rome at the parousia.  Gog and Magog (whoever they are) will have theirs at some point in the future.

Hope that helps.

Doug Wilkinson

Comment by Allyn Morton on June 6, 2012 at 3:45pm

Beg to differ, Doug, but the rule of people began when Jesus said the regeneration would take place. Matthew 19:20 says So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

12 men were not all that followed Christ. Jesus had hundreds by that time. In fact if we exclude Judas there were only 11 faithful apostles then. My point on the numbers is that the only thing symbolic in Jesus' statement was the 12 thrones. So I contend and with this evidence that Duncan has it all bassackwards. The regeneration took place at the time of the Gospel going forth to all the tribes of Israel. It certainly happened and it reaped a tremendous harvest.

Comment by Doug on June 6, 2012 at 4:04pm

Allyn,

 

Which Doug are you addressing?

 

Doug M (not Doug W)

Comment by Allyn Morton on June 6, 2012 at 5:38pm

Doug M.,

Doug Wilkinson said:

Our core argument is that the Millennium couldn't have started earlier than the parousia because the Millennium is the beginning of the rule of the people who don't start ruling until they are resurrected at the parousia.

My comment was a reaction to that erroneous statement.

Sorry for not making it clear as to who I was responding to. However, the text I gave was wrong and the actual verse is Matthew 19:28

Comment by Norm on June 6, 2012 at 11:41pm

Doug W.

 

Thanks for the response.  

 

Doug you need to understand that I have spent a great deal of time in the years prior reading and studying Daniel and Revelation  and I not unaware of many of Duncan’s ideas as I’ve been around his works for at least 5 or six years.  I’m going to agree with Duncan on about 95 % of his recognitions but it’s going to be the conclusions we draw differing ideas from about 5 % is what I’m currently interested in.   I simply don’t have the time to revisit again the 95% that we agree on as that is not a good use of my time.

 

Most of this discussion is going to be based upon how we develop our overarching hermeneutic approach and will often determine why we might draw some varying conclusions.  Simply put I’m a big picture guy from beginning to end and feel comfortable that I’ve developed a fairly consistent overview of the Biblical theme and message. I believe it’s important to have the big picture down to the best of our abilities and then determine how the details fit into that picture. That method has served me well and continues to because it keeps me from getting too far off track which is very easy to do because of the variety of themes and story genres we have to deal with and sort out. 

 

Basically the Bible theme can be boiled down to some very simple concepts and story line. Let me illustrate.

 

Gen 1 is basically a bare bones overview outline of the story that is going to unfold before us until messiah comes. Gen 2 introduces the beginnings of faithful families that become Israel and because of their proclivity for one God they are singled out as God’s chosen ones. According to Paul’s analysis they develop a perverted means of walking with God called the “works of the flesh” which is also called the law. This extended family comes to realize that this was not the proper means of existing in harmony (Garden walk) and through inspiration reveal through prophetic projections that this defective method will be overturned and God’s family will be rescued from that weak method. The reason this is important is because the idea was that through walking with God in His Garden humans will have freedom from bearing their sin’s in that harmonious relationship. (This is the crucial and most important theme of scripture bar none)

 

Their  covenant exile due to a lesser method of spirituality would not be allowed to stand and messiah was projected to come and rectify the situation. According to Paul sin abounds in our natural world and the only way to obtain release from its human burden is to be reestablished back into the Garden walk with God where our sins will not count against us as was originally intended for God’s faithful children who seek Him.

 

The story is told through symbolism and metaphor with “death” being one of the main metaphorical mediums. It is used to illustrate that due to our method of reconciliation we have fallen back into mortal dust of the earth which simply means we lack the gift of immortality that belongs to those who are in harmony with God. Christ overcoming physical “death” is the Great Sign to humanity that following His higher calling will deliver those who seek God “life eternal” once again as was originally expected. Paul says this method of striving after the flesh is the one “specific sin” that caused faith seeking people to lose their righteousness with God and so when Law and commandment are removed as the obstacle then Garden life if open again for His faith seeking people.  1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

 

Christ began His works with great signs and the Cross and He said He would end it with great signs and then He would turn the Kingdom back over to God so that everything will be as it should be in the original Garden. AD 70 was the finale of Christ work and so the Garden has been fully reestablished again and those who walk with God through Christ are walking with God in the cool of the day which has no night. The government has been established forever and there is no more need for reconciliation if we partake of Christ. Adulterous Israel and murderous and hedonistic Nations have no power over this government as it will endure forever as they have both been put asunder (Not in the physical realm but in the Heavenly realm).  

 

The Bible projects this story in multifaceted illustrations and 1000 year pictures are part of that story. There is nothing mystical about the 1000 year metaphor as it is simply an illustrative tool to help us keep track of the timing and completion of aspects of these stories. We make our mistake by embracing too much of the metaphor and let it drive the story instead of noticing how it reinforces the simple story within.  Redemption has been completed and God’s people have been called back to live in it the way it was intended. All the worrying about death, decay, evil  and suffering are utilized to describe the futility of living lives without our sins forgiven.  Righteousness with God through faith and dependence upon Him is the story line all the way through.  It’s not about changing the physical nature of earth back to a mystical Garden of Eden which was simply a metaphorical picture used to illustrate the message but it’s about the realization that the methodology of being in harmony with God is set in stone and in Heaven forever and is sufficient grace for all our needs while here on this earth. But generally everyone wants more physical signs than the perceived blessings of the spiritual ones that Christ became exasperated with them because of that misplaced hope.

 

Joh 6:26-27  Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.   Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you.

 

We can have a good discussion about what are the implications for us post Parousia but IMHO we already know what it is and that is the template that Christ established through His teachings of loving God and our fellow man. There is no higher calling and frankly getting enmeshed with metaphors and making them more than they represent lessens what Christ and God set about to accomplish for us. We can speculate philosophically and talk about the Nations and governments all we want but ultimately what was most important is a done deal. I’m sorry if that disappoints some but the story was simple and its problem has been taken care of.

 

Bottom line is that if Rev 20:7-10 is future then we need some explanations on why that doesn’t discredit the completion and finality of what Christ has done. Therefore He has still not yet defeated His enemies and put them under His footstool in the spiritual realm and we are still living under the curse and the Old Covenant because the Nations needed to be put under His rule just as the apostate rulers of Israel were.  

 

More coming.

Norm

Comment by Norm on June 6, 2012 at 11:45pm

This excerpt is in response to my friend on another closed forum.

Let’s see if I can lay out the way that Duncan and Doug may be presenting their concepts and go from there. I’m not going to challenge Duncan’s work line by line because that is a sink hole that I would never get out of. I’m going to present what I consider to be some basic concepts and logical applications of Biblical themes and attempt to derive conclusions using that method.  My premise is that the Bible has consistent themes that reinforce the same patterns over and over again. I would challenge that is where Duncan’s and Dougs ideas are going to come up short.

 

Here we go.

 

Essentially they are proposing that Rev 20:7-10 doesn’t fit chronologically between the Parousia and the GWT Judgment. 

 

Therefore there is a proposal that says the battle of Gog and Magog occurs after the GWT Judgment.

 

There also appears to be a debate upon the manifestation of the Gog & Magog battles but it seems Duncan, Doug and you are possibly projecting that this battle occurred in some form or fashion post GWT Judgment. I realize that this is also where there is still uncertainty and working things out still on going.

 

There is also a desire to call Post AD70 a continuation of the millennium period but I’m going to set that aside for the time being as I don’t believe it materially affects the discussion concerning the logical layout patterns of what is being presented. 

 

Let’s compare that to my presentation also minus the definition of a millennium period.

 

I believe as well that AD70 saw the end of the Parousia but I do believe after further analysis that the author did intend to portray the battle of God and Magog as occurring before the GWT Judgment.  

 

I see the battle of Gog and Magog as indicative of the victorious forces of God (the saints) defeating the forces of the Nations from all corners. These are demonic forces that could be brought up against the camp and the city of the Saints post Parousia and then once they were defeated everyone came before the GWT for judgment.  I see no physical battles but spiritual warfare as outlined in Rev 19 as occurring at the Battle of Gog and Magog. The Gospel going to the Nations and being completed is the reason the Nations Battle of Gog and Magog will be defeated. Until the fullness of the Gentiles were brought in the nations could not be defeated IMO, but we know that was completed through Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles.

 

Now the question is how do the two proposals compare that plays out post AD70 and the GWT?

 

I would ask; do you see physical battles taking place?  If you do not see Gog and Magog as physical battles occurring then what is the purpose in your mind for those battle scenes in Rev 20:7-10.

 

If you see them as real physical battles then are they one-time battles and can you identify them historically or are they ongoing battles and can they be identified?  

 

Also how do you fit them in with OT and NT prophecy that will collaborate an understanding that they are an ongoing physical battle post GWT? What text do you use to support an idea that would demonstrate a Roman judgment or a European, Indian, Chinese or American Indian Battle perhaps?  

 

How does Gog and Magog fit historically and is it ongoing is my question.  Perhaps you might want to read Kurt Simmons work on Roman Judgment as one possibility.

 

Is there an advantage theologically of an ongoing physical warfare that adds to the accomplishment of the finished work of Christ when He hands back the Kingdom to God fully restored?  If it does compliment Christ work after He has put all His enemies under His feet, what would that benefit entail. Or do Duncan and Doug believe Christ handed the Kingdom back to God at the GWT.

 

 

My supposition is that Duncan and Doug have simply come up with another futurist materialistic approach ala Sam Frost but a little more sophisticated and with slight differences but still accomplishing similar desires for physical future manifestations in some manner. When you get down to the bottom line that simply is what is at stake. If their projection is true about Rev 20:7-10 then those verses need to be examined under the light of what Christ has already set in stone through defeating all His enemies.

 

Now I’m going to lay out some scriptures that demonstrate IMO that indeed the Jews and the Gentiles were going to be judged together at the GWT Judgment. This simply demonstrates the continuity of the scriptures that I believe begins this proposition all the way back deep in the OT.

 

I’ll start with Romans 2 where we see Paul Lays out the commonality of the Jew and Gentile are not going to be separated at the ultimate conclusion of the GWT. These verses are not going to prove or disprove conclusively the idea that Rev 20:7-10 should be read after the GWT Judgment. But I believe they project that the Gentiles were indeed going to feel the wrath of God in Judgment if they did not turn to God through Christ just as the remnant Jews did.  Just like adulterous Israel we have complicit Nations judged together clearly demonstrated time after time. It’s a corporate pattern like Israel’s corporate body that holds and I would challenge that Rev 20:7-10 fits that pattern perfectly chronologically and is not to be moved Past the GWT period to later events.  I see no where that this pattern is changed except through Duncan’s attempt to work around it which appears strained when judged against much more proof than he lays out. There just seems to be too much evidence stacked against Duncan’s thesis for it to ultimately hold up under cross examination.

 

Let’s look first at Rom 2 to see that Jew and Gentile are being judged together on that Day according to Paul.

 

Rom 2:5-16  But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.  (6)  He will render to each one according to his works:  (7)  to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;  (8)  but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.  (9)  There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,  (10)  but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.  (11)  For God shows no partiality.  (12)  For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.  …  (16)  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

 

 

Here again there is a day when God will judge the world including Paul’s inclusion again of the Gentiles.

 

Act 17:30-31  The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,  (31)  because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

 

Here we see evidence that the nations were enraged  but the time to be judged was again after the Judgment which looks classically like Rev 20 ‘s template. Again using some of the same language as seen in Rev 20.

 

Rev 11:15-18  Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."  (16)  And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God,  (17)  saying, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign.  (18)  The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth." 

 

Here again we see the tie in of demonic battles going on but then it is done and the Cities of the nation’s fall and it’s all tied to the Parousia and

 

Rev 16:14-19  For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.  (15)  ("Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!")  (16)  And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.  (17)  The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"  (18)  And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake.  (19)  The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.   … 17:1  Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters,

 

 

Here we see the complicity of the Nations and the reason that wrath was awaiting them as well as apostate Israel. Israel and the Nations were explicitly intertwined with demonic forces and it was through the Judgment upon apostate Israel that provided the power of Judgment upon the Nations. You cannot separate them either in the OT or NT projections nor in Rev in my opinion.

 

Rev 18:8-9  For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her."  (9)  And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.

18:23  and the light of a lamp will shine in you no more, and the voice of bridegroom and bride will be heard in you no more, for your merchants were the great ones of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.

 

Again I suggest Rev 19 and 20 both fall into this same scenario of Jew first and then Gentile judgment. I think Duncan is likely overly systemizing scriptures in a manner that is likely foreign to the Jewish mindset to some degree. I believe the consistent themes of the biblical narrative overthrow his and Doug’s thesis. If you have a thesis and it has to be massaged constantly to make it work then it likely doesn’t fit because it’s not following the overall patterns that are needed to consistently demonstrate it is a correct approach.

 

Basically the reason the full Preterist position will be rejected is due to a desire to have some tangible prophecy that the futurist church can hang their hat on. There is a deep desire to want physical manifestations instead of eternal spiritual ones. Christ pointed this out to the Jews at one time and we still are often pursuing the physical and not the eternal.  

 

Joh 6:26-27  Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.   Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you.

 

Blessings

Norm

Comment by Doug on June 7, 2012 at 8:10am

Norm,

The two posts above are BRILLIANT! You have laid out the theme of the bible clearly and succinctly. I am in full harmony with your analysis. We both think alike. Thank you.

 

In fact, I think the first post is a great start for an outline of a book you could write. Really! It's that good.

 

Doug MMMMM :)

 

Events

Forum

Adam as Israel

Started by Internet_Troll in Eschatology. Last reply by Internet_Troll Nov 5. 9 Replies

The parousia and judgment of nations

Started by Internet_Troll in Eschatology. Last reply by Joseph Rehby Jul 6. 16 Replies

Preterist Networking

Started by Judy Peterson in Prayer Requests. Last reply by John Aug 8, 2016. 17 Replies

The 10 Tribes of Israel

Started by Internet_Troll in Questions and Best Answers We Can Give!. Last reply by Internet_Troll May 22, 2016. 9 Replies

Online Teaching Elders

Started by Eohn Rhodes in Eschatology. Last reply by Doug Dec 22, 2015. 4 Replies

Who is the abomination of desolation ?

Started by Stairway To Heaven in Eschatology. Last reply by Brother Les Dec 11, 2015. 3 Replies

Divine council

Started by Sharon Q in Eschatology. Last reply by Sharon Q Oct 3, 2015. 5 Replies

Marriage and Divorce Motif Between God and Israel

Started by Andrew Reish in Eschatology. Last reply by Brother Les Jul 5, 2015. 5 Replies

Millennium

Started by Mark Baker in Eschatology. Last reply by Internet_Troll May 4, 2015. 48 Replies

Fulfilled prophecies of Jesus

Started by joy sung in Eschatology Mar 22, 2015. 0 Replies

The End of the Old Covenat

Started by Internet_Troll in Eschatology. Last reply by Internet_Troll Jan 21, 2015. 60 Replies

© 2017   Created by Tim Martin.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service