O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Six Zealot Leaders and Four Edomite Leaders

Six Zealot Leaders and Four Edomite Leaders

Revelation 17

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Six Zealot Commanders :
1 Simon bar Giora
2 Menahem ben Judah
3 John of Giscala
4 Eleazar ben Hanania
5 Eleazar ben Simon
6 Eleazar ben Yair

Four Edomite Commanders:
7 John
8 Jacob ben Sosa
9 Simon ben Cathlas
10 Phineas ben Clusothus

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Despite early successes in repelling the Roman sieges, the Zealots fought amongst themselves, and they lacked proper leadership, resulting in poor discipline, training, and preparation for the battles that were to follow. At one point they destroyed the food stocks in the city, a drastic measure thought to have been undertaken perhaps in order to enlist a merciful God's intervention on behalf of the besieged Jews.

The Jewish defenders were split into factions: John of Gischala's group murdered another faction leader, Eleazar ben Simon, whose men were entrenched in the forecourts of the Temple. The enmities between John of Gischala and Simon bar Giora were papered over only when the Roman siege engineers began to erect ramparts.

The account of Josephus described Titus as moderate in his approach and, after conferring with others, ordering that the 500-year-old Temple be spared. According to Josephus, it was the Jews who first used fire in the Northwest approach to the Temple to try and stop Roman advances. Only then did Roman soldiers set fire to an apartment adjacent to the Temple, a conflagration which the Jews subsequently made worse.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Earth = Judea.
Kings of the Earth = The chief priests, the elders, the scribes and the Pharisees who sit in Moses’ seat (Matthew 23). The seat of the beast (Revelation 16:10).

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Comment by Patricia Watkins on October 14, 2016 at 2:03am

This post has the approximate time period correctly identified, but the wrong 10 individuals named to fulfill the position of the 10 horns.  

Check Josephus' account of the time just after Cestius Gallus' troops were defeated in AD 66.  Josephus states that the temporarily triumphant Jews returned to Jerusalem and decided to appoint 10 generals over themselves for the war.  The record of the 10 men selected is found in Wars 2.20.3 - 562 through 4 -568.  

#1) Joseph son of Gorion

#2) Ananus the high priest

#3) Jesus son of Sapphias, one of the high priests

#4) Eleazar son of Ananias, the high priest

#5) Niger, governor of Idumea

#6) Joseph son of Simon, general of Jericho

#7) Manasseh general of Perea

#8) John the Essene 

#9) John son of Matthias

#10) Josephus son of Matthias

All these received power simultaneously just after the AD 66 victory over Cestius Gallus' army, (just as the 10 horns would do in Rev. 17:12), but had not received this power as yet from the time that John penned Revelation (which was just before AD 60).  Their power as appointed generals (including 2 of them as governors of Jerusalem) would resemble that of a "king", not that they really were "kings".   Remember, in Jewish terminology, a "king" is a high priest, not a monarch as we understand it.

This "one hour" episode when the 10 generals/horns are given power is also referred to in Zechariah 12:5-6.  "And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.'  In that day will I make the governors of Judah like a hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left..."  This is the same language describing the actions of the 10 horns in Rev. 17:16, who eat the flesh of the whore, and burn her with fire.  It was civil war in Jerusalem - a house divided against itself - with the inevitable result that it could not stand.

The four Idumean commanders listed above fulfilled a different part of Revelation's prophecy - they were the four angels/messengers mentioned in Rev. 9:14 whose boundary ended at the Euphrates.  These four commanders came with the army of 20,000 Edomites to Jerusalem - the "two myriads of myriads" that Rev. 9:16 lists (a myriad being equal to 10,000).   This army of two myriads under the four commanders destroyed the third part of men in Jerusalem (Rev. 9:15,18).  This "third part" was the destruction of the moderate faction led by Ananus - one of three factions present in Jerusalem at that time.  With the murder of Ananus and Joshua during this Idumean attack (who I believe were the two witnesses of Rev. 11), the last restraint on the Zealots within the city was removed.

Comment by Stairway To Heaven on October 14, 2016 at 11:27pm

Patricia Watkins,

Thank you for your comment and correction. I agree on the points you said. I can learn many things from you.

Comment by Patricia Watkins on October 15, 2016 at 12:25am

Stairway,  I should give credit where it is due for this point about the 10 horns being the 10 generals.  I was first alerted to this fact by the comments in a post made by Adam Maarschalk on his website - "Pursuing Truth".  We had been exchanging comments about the 7 and 8th "kings"  on the Rev. 17 beast being identified as the high priests of the House of Annas and NOT the emperors of Rome, as is usually thought.  He came to agreement on this point, and took it further by noticing that the 10 horns were the 10 generals that Josephus mentions.  I had never before noticed that the actual count of generals selected was 10 - which perfectly matches as a fulfillment of the 10 horns.  

Incidentally, in one of his site's recent posts, Adam also included a link to one of your posts here on DID about the high priests of the House of Annas being the 7 and eighth kings on the Rev. 17 scarlet beast.  So far, the idea has met with generally favorable response on his site.  For me, the idea is groundbreaking, and opens up the interpretation of many other points in Revelation as well.

Comment by Internet_Troll on March 29, 2017 at 12:35pm

Patricia, while I am intrigued by the suggestion that the beast is about the high priests, how do you understand the phrase "they shall hate the prostitute"? Further, doesnt the "burn her with fire" fit more into what Titus did?
From Jesus' parables I would link the judgment on Israel, with the destruction by the Romans which is where (I believe) the ultimate desolation of Jerusalem occurred.

If indeed the burning of Jerusalem was what Jesus referred to e.g. in Matt 22:6, and if this was carried out by Romans, I find it difficult to have Jerusalem being burnt with fire by another entity in Rev 17.

How do you understand these?

Comment by Patricia Watkins on March 29, 2017 at 4:33pm

Hi Boyardee,

I presume the verse you are referring to is Matthew 22:7, not verse 6?  "But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies (the Romans under Titus) and destroyed those murderers and burned up their city."

Of course, the final torching of the temple and the city was done by Roman hands in September of AD 70, which literally turned Jerusalem into "The Lake of Fire" for the city's second death at that point.  But long before that last 5-month siege period, ever since Cestius Gallus and the Roman troops under him were defeated in the autumn of AD 66, the battle for supremacy in Jerusalem was predominantly an Israelite-against-Israelite conflict from the end of AD 66 until April of AD 70 (42 months). 

Civil war was the main contributing factor that sealed the doom of the city and the nation.  This "brother against brother" factor deserves more consideration in our interpretation of Revelation's prophecies than it usually gets.  It involved arson committed by the Jews themselves as they contended with each other for who would emerge as the military Messiah-king over the city and the nation. 

The "captains of thousands of Judah" or the "governors of Judah" in Zechariah 12:5-6 (LXX or KJV) were the ones compared to a "hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf" in Jerusalem, even before Titus showed up.  These ten horns acting as kings (from the wilderness beast of Rev. 17) ended up in conflict with the Zealots in Jerusalem.  Niger the governor over Idumea, #5 on the above list of ten generals, was murdered by the Zealots (Wars 4.6.1 - 359).  The #2 general, Ananus the former high priest, and the #3 general, Jesus son of Sapphias, another former high priest, experienced the same fate during the Idumean / Zealot attack (Wars 4.5.2).  The #1 general on the list, Joseph son of Gorion was murdered at the same time as Niger (Wars 4.6.1 - 358).  The #10 general, Josephus, was also turned to be the Zealots' enemy, as he eventually preferred to establish peace with Rome instead of a pointless war which his people could not possibly win in the end. 

Essentially, anyone who was a moderate who preferred an advantageous peace with Rome hated the Zealot's ruthless tactics and became their bitter enemy.  It was a 42-month battle between these opposing mindsets. 

In reference to my above comment on October 14, to be fair, I should mention that Adam's viewpoint at his "Pursuing Truth" site (concerning the 7 and 8th kings being the high priests of the house of Annas) has altered since I last commented here.  He no longer agrees with that position.  However, I still maintain that there are no less than 3 beasts described in Revelation: #1) the Roman beast from the sea (Rev. 13:1), #2) the Judean beast from the land of Israel (Rev. 13:11) who acted as the False Prophet, and #3) the scarlet Judean beast in the wilderness (Rev. 17:3) which included all the False-Messiah candidates, or pseudo-christs.  I am open to alternative views on this, but so far this fits the prophetic events of Revelation best as far as I can tell.

Comment by davo on March 29, 2017 at 11:42pm

Patricia: …of AD 70, which literally turned Jerusalem into "The Lake of Fire" for the city's second death at that point.­


Nice to see someone else acknowledge this reality as well. :)

Comment by Patricia Watkins on March 29, 2017 at 11:50pm

Hi Davo,

Yes, it does clear the air about the proper understanding of the final state of the wicked dead.  Ever since I realized that the entire book of Lamentations was nothing but a "funeral dirge" for Jerusalem's FIRST DEATH at the hands of the Babylonians, it was just a step to recognize that the SECOND DEATH also belonged to the city of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans - with the temple burnt on the very same day of the year both times.  It's more than just coincidental.

Comment by Internet_Troll on March 30, 2017 at 11:33am


Thanks for the insights there.

I understand you to imply that the warring of the factions against each other and those against their cause is what you understand as "they shall hate the prostitute". Have I understood you correctly?

Would I be correct in concluding you see the burning of the prostitue by fire in Rev 17 as being different from the Lake of fire (a fire where the beast would be thrown rather than a fire he uses)?

Again, the sharp edge of my question being the relationship between the burning of the prostitute by the beast and/against the burning of Jerusalem by the Romans i.e. the lake of fire.

Comment by Patricia Watkins on March 30, 2017 at 5:57pm

Hi Boyardee,

I know you appreciate precision on the details, and I do too.  But in the case of trying to put a sharp chronological dividing line between #1), the Lake of Fire that Jerusalem became, and #2), the burning of the prostitute - I don't think that it's entirely possible to separate them.  During those last years in Jerusalem, the symbolic fire of God's judgment merged with the literal flames that eventually consumed the city.  And we are told that at the very end, visually it appeared that the entire city was one mass of flames (Wars 6.271-284).  Hence, the "Lake of Fire" designation, which, in a sense, could really apply to the entire duration of tormenting conditions in Jerusalem from AD 66 - AD 70.  I do think that the Lazarus and the Rich Man parable was meant to portray this tormenting period, instead of providing a picture of eternal conscious torment in Hell, as is usually presumed.

We have a rather cryptic statement by God in Isaiah 31:9 where He claims that His "fire is in Zion, and His furnace in Jerusalem."  This Old Testament phrase is echoed in Matthew 13:41-42 (Interlinear) where Jesus' parable of the tares and the wheat described how the tares would be disposed of;  "...shall send forth the Son of Man his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all the offenses and those who practice lawlessness."  (anomian - probably means Zealotry, as with the case of the 2 Zealot thieves - the "lawless" ones - crucified beside Jesus in Mark 15:27-28 cp. Isaiah 53:12 LXX)  "And they shall cast them into the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth." 

This "furnace of the fire" (a.k.a the "Lake of Fire") was where both of the Judean beasts were cast (the False Prophet, Rev. 13 beast from the land, and the Rev. 17 beast of the wilderness) as well as every unclean spirit - the devil and his angels.  All these were concentrated in that one city to prey upon one another during those last few years. 

Jerusalem became a magnetic draw for all those who would "practice lawlessness" - Zealotry - and it also became a prison for all the unclean spirits (Rev. 18:2).  If any demon-possessed Israelites were confined within the city, whether voluntarily or not, then whatever unclean spirits that possessed them were consequently confined to the city as well.  After all, Jesus had predicted that the unclean spirits that he and the disciples had cast out would return with 7 others more wicked than themselves, and make the last state of Israel worse than before.

It was God's "furnace of fire" (both symbolic and literal) that eradicated all these entities by the end of that age, using "His armies" (the Romans) to completely incinerate all the physical trappings of the Old Covenant temple system. 

In addition, the bodies, souls, and spirits of all the wicked dead were disposed of by God's consuming fire by the end of that age also.  It would go too far off-topic to explore the mechanics of how that was done in this one comment, but a God who created all those things from nothing had the right and the capability of destroying them as well. 

"The ungodly shall not stand in the judgment..." we are told in Psalms 1:5.  Without the covering of Christ's righteousness, all the ungodly from creation up to AD 70 were destroyed - body, soul, and spirit.  But all the true "Israel of God" from creation up to that time were saved / delivered / i.e. physically resurrected to enjoy eternal life with an incorruptible body, soul, and spirit in God's presence.

I hope all that above doesn't muddy the waters further for you, Boyardee. 

Comment by Internet_Troll on April 5, 2017 at 11:23am

Thanks Trish


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