Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

It is no secret that the partial preterist world tries its best to marginalize consistent preterism. Gary DeMar has called the movement a "tar baby" with only about 100 people in it. 

With that in mind, these two episodes of "Back to the Bible" with Woodrow Kroll, were quite surprising and may be harbingers of what is to come upon the partial preterist world. 

Kroll is embarking on an 8 week journey through the book of Revelation. 

During this episode (Sept. 5) he explores the "preterist" interpretation of Revelation. I was very surprised to hear Mr. Kroll actually give a decent (for a Christian Radio host) explanation of the preterist hermeneutic. It was clear that he did not completely understand our interpretation, but compared to some, he actually did a commendable job. 

Here are some very interesting things that jumped out at me:

1) He made it a point to say that full preterist were not heretics, even though he thought they were wrong. This is a huge step in the right direction, and it is just another sign that the door is slowly opening for full-preterism to have a seat at the table as a legitimate option. 

2) He equated the preterist interpretation of Revelation with "true" or "consistent" preterism! Later on, he basically said that there are "partial preterist" but they are incredibly inconsistent and he basically marginalized them. Throughout the entire show he dealt with the "preterist" paradigm in terms of full-preterism! He even made some comments that makes me think he is at least familiar with the Covenant Creation paradigm. 

Which brings me to the next show... 

In this show (Sept. 6) he is explaining his futurist beliefs about Revelation. He did spend a fair amount of time trying to refute the full-preterist position as well as explaining the myriad of "pre" this and that positions that one can hold. However, at about the 20 minute mark he made the most amazing statement. I will quote it below. 

Here is the context: Speaking about 2 Peter 3:1-7 he basically said that he could see that as fulfilled in AD 70 as long as the full preterist admitted that it could still be future.

Now, I want to be honest here. A preterist could look at that passage and say, “It’s done. It’s all done. Everything it said in that passage occurred in A.D. 70”. I would agree. Everything that it said could have occurred in A.D. 70. I would also say, though, that everything it said in that passage could still be future. I will give you the potential it’s maybe past if you will give me the potential it’s maybe not past.

Now, here’s why I think it’s maybe not past. Peter prophesied that there would be people who would deliberately forget that the heavens and the earth (the term defined as “in the days of Noah”—the heavens and the earth; the term defined in Genesis 1:1) the heavens and the earth would remain consistent throughout all generations.

There are people who say that the old heavens represent the old covenant. The new heavens represent the new covenant. As the old heavens are passed away, so did the old covenant pass away? As the new heavens have come, so the new covenant has come. You see where I am going with all this. A preterist says just as we are living under the time of the new covenant we are living under the time of the new heavens. And there is nothing future; it’s all now. This is the kingdom of God. This is the new heaven promised in the Book of Revelation.

And I say to you, my preterist friends, I am really disappointed if this is the new heaven. You know, I thought for sure it would be better than this. I thought for sure I wouldn’t have to pay taxes when I got to heaven. I thought for sure I wouldn’t have to take the dog for a walk when I got there, and I thought for sure all my relatives would love me dearly.

If this is heaven, I am sorely disappointed.

Now, I will give you the fact that the potential is there that these verses all relate to something past. I just ask you to give me the fact that the potential is there they all relate to the future. (emphasis mine)

There you go. Kroll clearly sees that full-preterism requires Covenant Creation. He connects 2 Peter 3 with Genesis 1! Ironically he rejects it for the exact same reasons Joel McDurmon and Sam Frost reject full-preterism. They didn't get what they expected!

The main thing is to know that covenant eschatology & covenant creation is the only consistent hermeneutic from Genesis to Revelation. In the future, the partial preterist world will be the one marginalized and eventually the Dispies and Amill's will only feel the need to debate with full-preterist. That day is fast approaching!

Views: 497

Comment by John on September 12, 2012 at 1:45pm

Sam,

Do you agree with this statement?

"Everything Paul taught is to be found and taught from the pages of the Tanakh. Anything not found in the Tanakh cannot be found in Paul. In short, if the NT taught it, so the OT. If it is not in the OT, then neither is it in the NT. At least this was Paul's thinking."

Thanks

PS. If you can agree with someone on some things that denies justification by faith alone for salvation surely I can agree with Davo on some things :)

Comment by John on September 12, 2012 at 8:40pm

I can't help it i kept reading Sam's remark "Infinte evil.  that's the answer. infinite wars.  infinite child molestation and rape.  Welcome to the new heavens.....so, tell me, when you die, if you are "already" in heaven, why will "heaven" be any different from "heaven" now?"

And all this time i thought Sam was a Calvinist and what's the Calvinist answer to evil in the world?

"God ordained all evil and it brings glory to God" so whats Sam's problem with evil if it brings glory to God?

This is just more confusion in Sam's fabricated  eschatology.

Comment by davo on September 12, 2012 at 9:08pm

Well John, you have to remember that this above is what prêterists teach, apparently... at least Sam did for near 20yrs, again apparently. +_+ what a joke!

Comment by samuel m. frost on September 12, 2012 at 11:55pm

Davo, I love your comebacks!  Not that they have anything to do with anything, but they are entertaining. 

 

Comment by samuel m. frost on September 12, 2012 at 11:58pm

John, as far as you pretending to be a "Calvinist" (which is the furthest thing from the truth), God ordained "evil" in order to work for the greater "Good", ultimately, it's eradication.  The idea of infinite evil is anathema to Calvinism.  Nice try.  As far as you trying to pit me against Catholics, we all recite the Apostles' Creed....you can't.  It's an inter-CHRISTIAN debate....but you guys actually think you are Christians, in the historic definition of the term.  You're not.  It's like calling a Saturn a Buick, and Saturn's went out of business.  You have a nice day now.

Comment by samuel m. frost on September 13, 2012 at 12:00am

John, as far as Paul teaching "TNK", yes....and TNK teaches restoration of all things, resurrection of the body and the ulitmate inheritance of the world for the saints: heaven on earth visibly displayed.

Comment by davo on September 13, 2012 at 5:03am

Sam: ....but you guys actually think you are Christians, in the historic definition of the term.  You're not.

So Sam, WHEN did you become a Christian... BEFORE or AFTER you were a prêterist preachin’ pastor?

Comment by Tami on September 13, 2012 at 6:45am

Micah, great post!

Norm, I hope it is OK with you that I added the paragraph you wrote above to the side bar of my article here:

Is This Heaven on Earth?

Comment by Micah Martin on September 13, 2012 at 10:13am

Thank you Tami. 

I read your article and really enjoyed it. I reposted it on my facebook because you articulated my thoughts on this subject so well.  Thanks.

Blessings,
Micah

Comment by John on September 13, 2012 at 5:24pm

Sam,

Thanks for taking time and answering my question.Now if you could show me where Paul taught from in the Old Testament a 70AD judgement,spiritual resurrection and Jesus's parousia  and where in the OT is the other one separated by thousands or millions of years? 

I was told Beale would answer it in his book but he didn't.I asked Dr.Talbot a few years ago,still waiting.

My reading of the OT seems to have these events happening all placed within the same time frame  with phrases  like in that day, and at that time.

Sam i have never claimed to be a Calvinist although i do have a lot of Calvinist leanings.You want to refer to me as unorthodox or non creedal fine but you have no authority or right to call me a non Christian.

Sadly Sam you have become exactly what you have always complained about Roderick all these years.

I never remember you being so hateful and spiteful as a full preterist with those you disagreed with.

Blessings 

John (the guy you taught the cbv:)

Maybe you should read what Ben Witherington : wrote in response to a picture he posted.You can view it here.

    

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