O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

So, I'm studying redemption, and researching James Jordan. I come across this paragraph:

"Paul tells us that the law was in operation before Sinai, when he says “for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not im- puted when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses” (Rem. 5:13, 14a). Before the law “came ,“ the law was already in operation, for it was already dealing death to sin- ners. (Similarly, before the New Covenant “came, ” it was already in operation, for it was already granting resurrection life to repettent men. ) At Sinai, the law was given a definitive publication, but it was already operating in the world, and was already known to men" (

Umm...I'm not really sure how Jordan can maintain that and not be a preterist/covenant creationist. Just thought that was worth posting.

Views: 181

Comment by Micah Martin on July 29, 2012 at 12:38am

It's called Cognitive Dissonance, Traditional Blindness, or Paycheck Paranoia. Check out this little pearl from Ken Gentry. 

Comment by Alan Bondar on July 29, 2012 at 6:01pm

"Certainly the Scriptures are pre-eminently a covenant document. God even employs covenant in creating the world. And this powerful covenant concept will frame-in a postmillennial eschatology as we will see."

A postmillennial eschatology? You mean the one where the new covenant began at 70 AD? Oh wait, the one that begins at the end of the world. Oh wait, we postmillennialists can't decide. It depends who we're discussing it with.


Comment by Doug on July 30, 2012 at 9:46am

Yep. That's what happens so often.

What amazes me is that when I hear other preachers on the radio, such as RC Sproul, or Hank Hanegraaf, talk about prophecy, they get SO CLOSE to admitting preterism. But then they stop short of proclaiming it to be true.

But not because scripture prevents them from doing so. They stop because for their whole lives they have seen a future coming of Christ that they cannot conceive of Him already having come. Its not because scripture stops them, its because of their own preconceived ideas about what they THINK scripture says.

Comment by Tim Martin on July 30, 2012 at 8:53pm

Here are my favorites from Jordan's Handwriting on the Wall: A Commentary on Daniel


"Jesus' resurrection was a private vindication of who He was and what He did, but no one saw it took place, and Jesus only appeared to a few disciples. The destruction of the enemy city, Jerusalem, was His public vindication. Fulfilling Jesus' prophecies, it confirmed Him as a true Prophet, and as the last and greatest Prophet. It was the proof that He had indeed ascended to heaven and become King of kings and Lord of lords. Thus, the destruction of the Old Creation is of incalculable importance to Biblical theology." (pp. 341-342)

"First, they would know that the great sea represented the gentile world, for the land is always Israel, and the sea is always gentiles." (p. 359)

"The Hellenistic world enabled Jews to 'traverse land and sea' to make disciples (Matt. 23:15). By the time we get to the New Testament, we find synagogues and Gentile God-fearers all over the Hellenistic Roman world." (p. 379.)

"The Lord tells Garbriel to explain the vision to Daniel. Gabriel explains that this vision pertains to the time of the end. The end of what? The end of the first creation, which came to a full close in AD 70" (p. 417)

"A terminus or 'cut-off time' has been mentioned in 8:17 and 19 as the time when the Oikumene comes to an end, and in 9:26 as the end of the whole Old Creation order." (p. 495)

"The judgments of the Old Creation, all of which are extensions of the judgment on the first Adam, reduce the descendants of Adam almost to the place Adam was before God breathed life into him." (p. 535)

"Here we have the introduction to Herod. Herod the Great is the climax, in one way, of the entire history of Adam." (p. 597)

Those are most amazing quotes if you ask me. Can you say C-O-V-E-N-A-N-T  C-R-E-A-T-I-O-N???


Tim Martin

Comment by Micah Martin on July 30, 2012 at 9:49pm

This is today's beauty from Gentry. He makes the exact point that Don made during the debate. There is 1 hope!

Comment by Philip on July 31, 2012 at 9:23pm

Just for reference- and I am surprised that J.Jordan didn't mention this- there is a little conversation between God and Cain which (explicitly) makes it obvious that Cain had known about the "sin" concept.

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."  Gen 4:7 KJV (wow, how did the last part of that verse get so mangled? who is ruling who again? but that is another study for another time.)

I haven't look at what the original Hebrew says in contrast to ye Old Tyme English (of course not because it is summer... save the boring details for winter I say).


Comment by Alan Bondar on August 1, 2012 at 2:17pm

Here's another wonderful dilemma Jordan puts himself in. In an article entitled, "The Seven Thunders, An Interpretive Suggestion":

"Fourth thunder – 16:1 & 17: Great voices begin and end the series of libation-bowls, bringing the destruction of the Old Creation order."

Huh? I guess the Old Creation order gets destroyed twice. Fascinating. Must be a miracle.


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