Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

The State of the Covenant Creation Debate

Hello All!

Just thought I should mention to everyone that we have posted a new article at BeyondCreationScience.com. This new item relates to the ongoing debate over Covenant Creation.

Our article provides more context for the recent formal paper released by Jerel Kratt. We have also produced a graph that visually presents the two views in contention side-by-side for those who are studying Covenant Creation.

We are confident that those who read our work will find it to be a challenging and thought-provoking read. In fact, with this article we are releasing a few new biblical arguments for Covenant Creation against the young-earth creationist views promoted by some preterists.

Those who read this new submission in its entirety won't be disappointed.

------------------------

January 14, 2010

Covenant Creation continues to grow and blossom in the world of Covenant Eschatology since the publication of Beyond Creation Science and the 2009 Covenant Creation Conference.

From time to time a few critics of Covenant Creation have raised objections in an attempt to salvage some version of young-earth creationism within preterism. We are thankful to these critics because their work has led to the further refinement and exposition of the Covenant Creation model. We believe internal controversy and discussion among preterists on the issue of Genesis creation is a necessary and healthy development that will, in time, lead to a broad consensus as to the meaning and nature of Genesis creation...

Click here to read entire article and view graph.

Views: 90

Comment by John on June 12, 2010 at 3:47am
Tim,
There really is a lot of great stuff here especially the chart. Jerel's article still hasn't been refuted and i think that says a lot.
This section that you wrote really drives the nail home.

"One of the many terrible implications of Frost's model is that the promises God gave to Adam in Gen. 3:15, to Abraham and the other ancients later in Genesis were not fulfilled when their respective "heavens and earth" ended. According to Frost, for example, Adam and Eve's "heaven and earth" passed away at the time of Noah's flood. Yet the promise given to Adam and Eve in Gen. 3:15 was not fulfilled until the coming of Christ! Frost is forced to propose that pre-Sinai covenant promises (including Gen. 3:15) were transferred from one "heavens and earth" to the succeeding "heavens and earth." But if that is the case, then what theological basis can the true preterist argue against those futurists who transfer the promise of resurrection from Old Covenant Israel to the New Covenant Church? These futurists have simply utilized Frost's methodology! "


Only responses i have seen are the same arguments the futurist make just like you predicted.

As a matter of fact i just read this tonight about Frost posted at Preterist Cosmos list." He now is appealing to a texts in Genesis and appears to be claiming that God's victory over death, sin, evil, and all of his enemies (1 Cor. 15) won't be completely realized or fulfilled until this "end"of the planet earth and the human race takes place - per his logic and philisophical giberish."

I don't think a lot of us are surprised as we have been seeing this futurist tendency from Frost for years.I belive this is one of the reasons he was never able to "catch the power" of the covenant creation view.

Really looking forward to the 2010 conference!
Comment by Tim Martin on June 12, 2010 at 11:09pm
John,

I think you will find the material I am preparing for the 2010 conference to be very helpful. I expect that my style will be much lighter and breezier than in conferences past. Back then, I was very much focused on laying some very important exegetical and theological groundwork for the Covenant Creation view.

The critics have yet to deal with anything from the 2009 conference where a lot of pretty neat stuff was presented for the very first time. Jerel's development a few months ago has been sitting quietly without any substantial critique whatsoever. I'm to the point now that, within the preterist paradigm, I don't think Covenant Creation needs any more technical arguments. It has been established.

Now we can do something that I think is a lot more fun. Rather than trying to argue for the foundation of the view, I plan to simply demonstrate how the view naturally flows out of the New Testament. Yes, I think key portions of the New Testament are unintelligible apart from the Covenant Creation model. Can't wait to show you what I mean by that!

I'm still trying to get my head around Rev. Sam Frost's recent direction. It seems like every couple of years he takes a new approach on things. A couple of years ago it was a literal fulfillment of the long life-spans of Isaiah 65. Before that he denied any physical curse rooted in Gen. 3, which I thought was bizarre since the curse falls on the ground God created "In the beginning." Odd gyrations in Frost's theology no longer surprise me.

I did see a recent post where he claimed that his preterism will conform to what he calls "classical theism." Perhaps his developing view is merely an extension of this methodology. For nothing could be more "classical" than the explicit connection between the "beginning" (traditionally understood as the physical universe) and the "end" (traditionally understood as the physical universe, ultimately). Christian theologians have understood inherent connections for millennia. Sam was really trying novel theology a while back when he argued that Genesis 1 relates to the physical universe, but Bible eschatology was completely unrelated to the end of the physical universe. That is one odd view that violates the work of every Christian theologian I have ever read: ancient, medieval, or modern.

Yes, a physical-universe view of Genesis 1 leads inescapably to partial-preterism which is merely another form of futurism. I think that was one of my main points at the 2009 conference.

The key to the future of preterism is getting Genesis 1 right. Without covenant creation, preterism goes to pieces. Exhibit #14 (or is it 16?) - Rev. Sam Frost.

Blessings,

Tim Martin

P.S.
Comment by John on June 13, 2010 at 7:40am
Tim,
You said "The critics have yet to deal with anything from the 2009 conference where a lot of pretty neat stuff was presented for the very first time."

I noticed that...It's called bury your head in the sand and just kept repeating the same argument over and over and hope no one notices that they have been answered.Unfortunately a few people buy into that.Here is one of the latest response from SGP to Covenant Creation that i think is a perfect example of what we're getting use to.

Comment by Joel 1 day ago "Covenant Creation" theology has got to be the most absurd, ridiculous, unintentionally hilarious, and blasphemous re-writing of Genesis that I've ever heard of. And all this for what? So that evolution and billions of years can be safely tucked into a biblical worldview?

The saddest part is Joel has been a member here for over a year and has never asked a question or presented any legitimate arguments.Now "hal" sad is that?

By the way Tim i don't think Sam is a Rev. any longer...Birks had him defrocked :)
Comment by JL Vaughn on June 13, 2010 at 12:20pm
John,

That Birks bit is funny.

1) Birks had no right to defrock Rev. Frost.

2) Technically, Rev. Frost was "defrocked" when the church that ordained him closed its doors.

It was well within Birks' right to ignore the source of that ordination when he invited "Rev. Frost" to speak Easter '09. But it was not at all proper, and was actually hypocritical, to ignore the source of that ordination in his "defrocking" process.

It is pathetic how quick The Rev. Frost's friends and allies turn on their own. First that friend of John Anderson's, what was his name? Then RE. Then Birks. Now the PC gang. I sometimes feel sorry for the guy.
Comment by John on June 13, 2010 at 11:28pm
Mello,
Since Mike didn't provide a link i just assumed it was from personal talks or correspondence from email exchanges with Sam or just his summation from reading Sam's articles.

If you'll read the entire quote from the link i provided you also read " Sam told the three of us on the phone concerning 1 Cor. 13:12 that God "deposited" truth/knowledge for the church in AD 70 and that it is being worked out in time and will be "fully" known and fulfilled in heaven.

I'm sure if you join the email list and have any questions Mike would be happy to answer your questions.
Comment by Tami on June 14, 2010 at 8:35am
"Sam was really trying novel theology a while back when he argued that Genesis 1 relates to the physical universe, but Bible eschatology was completely unrelated to the end of the physical universe. That is one odd view that violates the work of every Christian theologian I have ever read: ancient, medieval, or modern."

So in reality, there is absolutely nothing traditional or "classic" about Sam's framework.
Comment by John on June 14, 2010 at 2:00pm
Mello,

The Preterist Cosmos email list is David Green's who is one of the co-authors of House Divided with Mike and Ed Hassertt.
Comment by Tim Martin on June 15, 2010 at 12:09am
Tami,

That is the weird part.

Tim Martin
www.BeyondCreationScience.com

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