Deathisdefeated

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

If you are a Christian, but you are not a follower of Ellen G. White, then you most likely do not follow the practice of Saturday Sabbath, kosher diet, sacrifices, etc., all the things found in the Law.  Far more than the jots and tittles have passed away.  Essentially the whole Law has passed away.

Your life, your example, testifies daily that "heaven and earth" have indeed passed away.

Every Christian needs to come to grips with this.  Most Christians believe:

1) "heaven and earth" are "the heavens and the earth" of Genesis 1,

2) "the heavens and the earth" of Genesis 1 is the physical universe, and

3) that the physical universe has not passed away.

Yet most Christians act as if the Law has passed away.

That is, most Christians deny their own doctrine by their actions.  Their actions testify that they believe that the "heavens and earth" of Matt. 5:18 has indeed passed away.

Either the "heaven and earth" has passed away, or Christians must practice the Law, the big stuff as well as every jot and tittle.

If you are not practicing the Law, then either 1) is false or 2) is false or 3) is false.  Take your pick.

Views: 266

Comment by Tami on February 27, 2012 at 7:54am

Jeffrey,

Why must you always make things so clear and simple? Pretty soon there will be nothing left to debate. ;)

Comment by thomas greenlee on February 28, 2012 at 1:29pm

Hey Jeff,

 

I personally know men who still practice the law. Therefore, 1) is true and 2) is true and 3) is true.

 

Tom

Comment by JL Vaughn on February 28, 2012 at 1:40pm

Tom,

Thank-you for confirming my very first sentence.

Of course, you implied, in my other thread, that you believe 1) is false.  My next post will make the case for 1)  is true.

Blessings

Comment by Brother Les on February 28, 2012 at 2:07pm

Many Gentiles do not understand what the Hebrew 'Heaven and Earth' is and with that lack of understanding, 'change' the meaning of 'jot and tittle'. 'Goverments and Peoples'? This does not compute for the vast majority of churchanity. The belief of a 'future' coming easily puts the 'jot and tittle' in line with the commandments of Jesus of Love God and Love thy neighbor. And then.... and then when the gospel has been preached to the whole world will the end come.

 

I guess Paul did say every has/had heard it.

Col 1:23   If  ye continue  in the faith grounded  and settled , and [be] not moved away  from the hope  of the gospel , which  ye have heard  , [and] which was preached  to  every creature  which is under heaven ; whereof  I Paul am made  a minister ;
Comment by Brother Les on February 28, 2012 at 3:04pm

JL, you say that Don has no eschatology of Gen1? Is it more of not wanting to see the creationism of the sons of day/night, good/evil in Gen 1..... being the sons of God all the same (vs non-sons whom make up the barbarians/greeks that are not in Gen 1,2) I believe that it is only a matter of time before he moves forward from Gen 3 to Gen1. So much of what he delievers gives many in churchanity that deer in the headlight look on their faces now.

 

We know that these boards speaking in a certain language of 'what would the first century Hebrews think that means'. We can not now do anything but think in those terms.

As for Joel writting about the tying in of Gen1 Creation story. Is he of the YEC paradyim (going away?).

He may be seeing the Spiritual aspect of Gen1 and thinking that that is a type (when it should be the anti-type. But in a reality it Gen1) is of real men who are given who are given the hearts of the Son/sun of one group the the hearts of the son/darkness. This is the very real reality that I am not sure that Joel sees yet.

 

Blessings my friend

Comment by thomas greenlee on February 28, 2012 at 5:43pm

Jeff,

 

I would always affirm that the heavens and earth of Gen, 1:1 is the physical universe. If you believe something I have said would lead you to believe other than that. I am correcting that now.

 

Given the truth that the physical heavens and earth described in Gen. 1:1 have not passed away, then either the law has not passed away or the law has passed away and the heavens and earth addressed by the Lord in the text you quote is not the heavens and earth of Gen. 1:1.

 

There are two facts that immediately come to mind that have a bearing on this subject. The first is the Lord's own statement that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. The second is the knowledge that the law was a schoolmaster to lead man to Christ. That need of a schoolmaster is as much needed today by those many millions of Jews who still practice the law, as it has ever been since that function of a schoolmaster knowledge was first revealed to them by God.

 

Let us be aware and not overlook the fact that if the first heavens and earth was the Gen. 1:1 that did not pass away until 70AD, everything contained in that first heaven passed away also. This would include God's throne and kingdom, the heavenly city of Jerusalem and the temple. I, for one, am not prepared to interpret the scriptures in such a manner.

 

Tom

Comment by JL Vaughn on February 28, 2012 at 6:04pm

Tom,

I would always affirm that the heavens and earth of Gen, 1:1 is the physical universe. [ 2) is true.] ...

Given the truth that the physical heavens and earth described in Gen. 1:1 have not passed away, [ 3) is true] then either the law has not passed away [negation of my premise] or the law has passed away and the heavens and earth addressed by the Lord in the text you quote is not the heavens and earth of Gen. 1:1. [Then 1) is false]

You have confirmed my logic in the OP.  So what is the problem?

Comment by Tim Martin on February 28, 2012 at 7:06pm

Brother Les,

Don doesn't seem to write much on Genesis 1. At least I can't find anything of substance in his books and articles. If you run across anything he has in print regarding the subject, please let me know.

Blessings,


Tim Martin

BeyondCreationScience.com

Comment by thomas greenlee on February 28, 2012 at 10:48pm

Jeff,

 

As often as you twist what has actually been said, you are in error. I repeat Gen. 1:1 was the physical creation and has not passed away. All three points are contained in this one statement and all three points are true 1) is true and 2) is true and 3) is true.

 

You claim that I refute a premise you make. If you have made a premise it must be a mythical one. Of the three premises, none of them contain any reference to the law, therefore I could not be accused of refuting a non premise of the law.  

 

Tom

Comment by Brother Les on February 29, 2012 at 9:47am

Hello Tim, I have read a lot of Don books and listen to him a lot. He blankets the End of The Ages (of The Death) with so much information. It would be nice if he would write a book on the Begining  of the Ages of The Death.

 

Mr. thomas greenlee,

A question comes to mind as to why you do not keep every jot and tittle of Matt 5:18? If you are under the 'schoolmaster', do what the 'schoolmaster' teaches. (example) Bring your tithes to The Temple and Eat it there.... (three times a year) (or do you think that you do not have to 'keep' 'that' Law??)

 

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